http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspxAccording to recent remarks by Rep. John Murtha, he intends to cripple President Bush’s “surge” plan in Iraq by placing numerous restrictions on how money can be spent, stating, “They won’t be able to do the deployment. They won’t have equipment, theyen-USCommunityServer 2.0 (Build: 60608.1)http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60686Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:37:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60686Scott Tepper, Malibu, CASpeaking as a mouthpiece of NeoCons and the military war mongers is easy. You don't have to think. Just parrot what others say. The problem comes when things start to break down in your logic (or lack thereof). And therein lies the rub with LCOL Francona's latest blather - er, I mean post. The primary lesson of Viet Nam was that the U.S. shouldn't get involved in the civil war of another country. And that we can't impose democracy on those who don't want it or fight for it themselves. Other than the Kurds, who are doing just fine, the rest of Iraq has no use for us. We should have left two days after Saddam's statute fell. The Kurds need us only to establish a border that the warring Sunnis aned Shiiets will respect. That's it. But LCOL rancona, Dick Cheney's lap dog, wants more military action in Iraq so that we can inflame and draw Iran into the conflict. Then LCOL Francona can have a full time job as a military commentator. At this point I question LCOL Francon'a motives. What he proposes is not in America's best interest. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60710Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:54:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60710R. WallaceWell thought out and written. We need people like you in Congress!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60725Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:09:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60725me, myself, and IDoes motive make a difference when the ends might be the same? Seems to me that the micromanagement of Vietnam was blundering and led to defeat, at least according to this rather simple historical recount. Was that the intent, or did Congress believe itself more capable or managing the war? The "colonel"'s motive here is not to manage the war, but to motivate its end and withdrawal of combat forces from Iraq. I'm not saying I agree with Murtha. I tend to think you leave the experts to do the job that you assign them, and the problem is that neither the job to date has been clear, nor have the plans or resources been adequate. That being said, not all micromanagement is created equal.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60728Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:12:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60728Steve B, Belleville IllinoisMurtha not only understands this, it is what he intended all along. He knows that this will cause the war to be just like Vietnam, it also is what he desires. Democrats look back to Vietnam as their glory days. The height of their power, when they really made a difference. They have been calling Iraq a quagmire since its beginning and have been comparing it to Vietnam since before the first American tank rolled into Baghdad. They want Iraq to be another Vietnam and they want another slow, excruciating withdrawal. They want America to loose in Iraq like we did in Vietnam. Why? I don’t know. Perhaps they believe that we as a country are wrong and must be punished. Regardless, they have consistently positioned themselves politically so that they only benefit from America loosing in Iraq and the war on terror as a whole. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60735Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:20:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60735Paul HoehneWhat I find especially interesting about this attack on Murtha's plan to help the president get out of what is a costly blunder in Iraq, is the implicit idea Vietnam was a winnable war. After killing 2,000,000 Vietnamese, does Francona really believe Vietnam was winnable if it were "prosecuted" correctly? Hey, whatever you're smoking, pass it around.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60744Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:25:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60744Paul H., Black Diamond, WAApparently history viewed from different perspectives results in different conclusions. The war in Vietnam was, as I recall, a bureaucratic catastrophe spearheaded and masterminded by then Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara. McNamara, as did Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, ran roughshod over the Joint Chiefs of Staff and implemented war stategies that were not consistent with the orthodox military doctrine of the day (Powell). History has a strange way of repeating itself. It was not the Congress that engaged in a failed war policy but Congress did extract us from Viet Nam. It was not Congress that miscalculated the difficulty in maintaining order in a bed of sectarian hatred and civil disfunction. It was not Congress that disbanded the Iraqi Army and destroyed the civilian governing infrastructure. But , as with Viet Nam, it appears that it will be Congress that extracts us from another imperial quagmire. The remaining element of repetitive history is the apology from Donald Rumsfeld. He may want to pattern it after this one: "We of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations who participated in the decisions on Vietnam acted according to what we thought were the principles and traditions of this nation. We made our decisions in light of those values. Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why. I truly believe that we made an error not of values and intentions, but of judgment and capabilities." Robert McNamara. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60750Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:34:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60750Palm Desert CAwhat kind of country is America ? More confusion about which war is moral and who should decide.? All wars are imoral except when attacked. How many more children and other civilians does America want to kill for its ill conceived war. How many more young americans need to die or be insured.? Will they end up on the street homless like so many Vietnam War Veterans.? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60755Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:40:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60755jim Danville V.A.how can we the people acually be we the people, when we are constantly being given conflecting arguments on this matter.It is the military vs political meddeling. how can we be successful in anything if there is now leadership to follow on a consistent stratigy?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60760Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:42:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60760Mac,Fort Worth,Texas MR. Murtha is nothing more than another "Son of Benedict" in his actions and words, he speaks like one who would put his own desire for power,influence and attention above the need of the nation. In my mind he is and will always be a Traidor to this country. Mr. Murtha, like Benedict Arnold once served the nation with honor, but turned on it for personal reasons. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60761Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:42:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60761Gary Schear, Bozeman MontanaSir, I only had to read to the second paragraph to understand that you don't care what the cause of the fight is or if that cause is just. You talk of Vietnam as if it were justified. History and the products that are manufactured in Vietnam and sold at Walmart today put the lie to Johnson's justification of that conflict. The domino's did not fall and we did not end up fighting the Vietcong in our streets. And you still lament the lost war? I wish there had been a Murtha to get into Johnson's and Nixon's face so that we could have reduced the size and the names on that Black Wall in Washington. Yet your only concern is winning the "game". Your only concern is your teams "stats". This Country needs to be RIGHT when it fights. I am damn tired of listening to you people say "oh well, we are there now guess we have to "win". How about holding our leaders accountable for being right for a change. We are the one's that bear the cost of their haste and stupidity. And there may come a time when we refuse you the blood and money you need to get your "stats" up.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60762Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:43:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60762Jim NashMr. Francona only remembers what benefits his argument about both Vietnam and Iraq. Both wars were started based on Lies and distortion, a simple incident in the Gulf of Tonkin was made up to justify a huge escalation, from mostly advisors to full combat force. In this war there was a nine month campaign of lies, distortion and intimidation of any opposing voice to force this war. They thought it would be a pushover, and Mr. Francona was going along all the way with the forces that so misunderstood what this war would turn into. In TV interview after interview Mr. Francona passed along the incorrect information spead by the Bush administration as fact. From "fixing the intelligence" on WMD to support invasion to a constant drumbeat of innuendo connecting Saddam and Osama, Mr. Francona and his friends in the Whitehouse offered "absolute certainty" about Nukes and WMD that was directly contradicted by intelligence reports in their hands. In Vietnam we were willing to burn villages, carpet bomb and defoliate not only the North but South Vietman also, the folks we were "protecting." Hunderds, even thousands, still die every year in SE Asia from unexploded ordinance and the effects of Agent Orange. Even if we had gone that extra step and finished off Hanoi, we would have ruled a country in turmoil and revolt as long as we stayed. I Iraq we are beset by an overwhelmingly domestic resistance that we can never "kill off." We are stuck in a situation where we have no idea who is the enemy and who is friendly. Who can we surge after and as has been the case so far, when we attack cvilians we only make more enemies. Bring in more troops, even much more as Mr. Francona implies, will only bring more death and recruit more terrorists. To say Rep. Murtha is suggesting too many limits on our troops is false, the last four years have seen that limitation as applied by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Now we are just trying to get out and leave the least-worst result of this "illegal and immoral" (Pope John Paul) war.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60764Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:43:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60764Al, Burlington, KSMurtha has not forgotten the lessons of Vietnam, he seems to be one of the few to have learned them. Most of the rhetoric coming from the administration and the pentagon seems to be recycled from the 60's...support the troops...fight them there so we don't have to fight them here...when they stand up, we'll stand down...spread democracy...wrong message to the enemy...chaos in the region. Yes, Murtha remembers and is striving to prevent another Vietnam...not create one. Murtha is the one with the guts.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60771Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:49:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60771Dave Malen, Camas WAYou've missed the whole point! America wants this war to end. Period. The Administration goes against the will of the people. Congress has only the power of the purse to enforce the people's will, and unfortunately Mr Murtha has been forced to use it. Vietnam was wrong, start to finish. So is this war. Please, get on the right side of this war. Please use your influence to suport our troops, by bringing them home. There will always be good political reasons to keep on killing. You can advocate death, but you should not. Stop the killing. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60783Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:01:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60783George Carlisle, Laughlin, NevadaAny comment I make may be considered an attack on all of the comments of others! Somewhere along the line all parties seem to forget that it is our sons and daughters that are dying day after day. I doubt if any member of the armed forces that is in Iraq and in Harm's Way today stops to consider if he (or she) is a Democrat or Republican, or stop to think about the similarities between Vietnam and Iraq! Their blood is being spilled on a daily basis and it would seem that there is no end in sight! I have one grandson that is now being deployed to Iraq for the fourth time, and another grandson being deployed for the second time! Neither one honestly understands the politics of war, but both are resigned to the prospect that because of the Politicians in Washington and the lack of positive leadership, their chances of being alive a year from now are being greatly diminished.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60784Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:05:24 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60784J.D. Troutdale,OregonHey Palm Desert... How many more Americans must die in "our own land" because the Non-believers also dont believe we'll be attacked again?? Losing military #'s over there and the civilians of another country, unfortunately being a part of any war... is much better than the memories I remember daily about 9-11 in America. Yes it is sad that innocent children and civilians die in war, but if you recall...Our present President was only in office a very short time and did nothing in that short time to stir this up, It was thrown in his lap on 9-11 because of the lack of previous presdencies concern or indecisiveness. I personally, dont ever in my life want to see America attacked again as we saw that fateful day...and if we dont take care of terrorism on their front, it most definately will return to haunt us here in our lands. what would be your response then? blame it on Bush...because Murtha and other blind big mouths prevented him from completeing the task? wake up now or give up your right to free speach later...It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the whole picture and the very real future of not continueing what was started by terrorism against the U.S. on 9-11.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60788Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:10:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60788ToddWhy is it the Democrats and liberal whiners can only talk about redeployment (surrender)? We are fulfilling Osamas Paper Tiger expectation, thanks to our fearless democrat leaders (Ha). From someone that has been there and will probably go back this disgusts me. People like Murtha are giving hope to the enemy. I want us to leave Iraq like the rest of the country. I just don't want us to leave it and the people I HELPED in defeat. So all of you sitting in your little cubicle who have no idea what it is actually like over there have fun. I am so proud to serve this country so you can have the right to be stupid. Just remember there are a lot of American soldiers over there that will be killed due to stupid political games. Once again people like Murtha have painted a target on our backs. They are traitors in many (big majority) service members eyes. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60791Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:15:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60791Mary Flannagan, Boston, MAMurtha can spell Vietnam. And you have proven you can spell it as well. Where you and Murtha part ways is that he REMEMBERS Vietnam... and you obviously do not.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60795Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:16:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60795Tom Columbus, OHWe already won the war, we just need to win the peace. Let's decide as a nation, if we are going to fight to win....or fight for mediocrity. The plan is simple, win Bagdad, win the peace. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60796Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:18:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60796dave_1007@hotmail.comOh, so we won in Vietnam? I didnt know that. Glad for the information.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60797Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:19:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60797Rev. Dewey Leon Everts Jr, Santa Barbara CA 93101Never make decisions about something of which you know little---or nothing.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60798Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:20:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60798Bill Edelen, Santa Rosa, CAI am very much in support of Murtha. Do not understand the poor analagy Francona makes with Murtha's request for proper training and equipment (what veteran could possibly not think this is a good idea) to interference with rules of engagement in Vietnam. What does one have to do with the other??? THis is a giant leap in logic. And I am a Vietnam Vet.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60799Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:20:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60799Max Holland, San Antonio, TXDoes Francona truly believe that the commander in chief has, and is currently, "effectively" prosecuting this war? By this article he must. What does he propose be done under the circumstance that the commander in chief does NOT? Is it "supporting the troops" to allow such to continue? Or does he believe it better to allow our best young people to die as a result of such poor execution?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60800Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:21:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60800Dean CarlsonFrancona is just another neocon "creating" his own reality. What need to be said is that winning the war in Iraq is not the Marines mission. Its the presidents mission (he's another shitbird as a marine above called Murtha)! Its not the valient marines fault if the presidents mission is flawed. They have done as good a job as could be expected under the impossible circumstances. I call the presidents mission as a massive blunder, and the soldiers and Iraqi citizens the victims. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60803Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:25:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60803Bob, Atlanta, GAMurtha is an idiot and needs to be removed or impeached from office for mental incompetence.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60804Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:25:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60804Janie, Palmyra NJIt's amazing that as a veteran yourself, you're against Murtha's plan to ensure that ALL troops are properly equipped, trained and rested. We need more people in Congress like Murtha to step up and make sure our troops have everything they need, since the Administration decided they don't want to provide the necessities. Please, no more spin simply because he's a Democrat. I need LESS GOP talking points in my news - thank you.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60806Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:26:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60806Mark Battey, Cincinnati, OhioFranona has forgotten the lesson of Vietnam. which is never go to war unless it really is a matter of our defending our nation or out close allies. Trying to play geopolitical games with other peoples countries, as in Vietnam and Iraq, is always a bad idea because people will only stomach so much war and the locals will hate you. You can say something vacuous like that everyone believed they had WMD's, but the vice president and president knew they were basiclly making that up, and it was the veep on TV that got everyone else believing it.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60809Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:29:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60809Bob Fagg, Moultrie, GAI think LCol Francona misses the point, which is, by reducing the money, Bush will be faced with the decision to keep the unfunded troops in Iraq or to remove them. If, as he describes in his post, the President decides to keep the soldiers there anyway, how is that Murtha's fault? The point is to make Dubya get out, not to create a new Vietnam. The Adminstration has already done that! If the President still can't get the message to withdraw the troops that Congress and the American people are trying to send him, it's his own fault!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60810Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:29:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60810j, clearwater, flSpecialist Jack, Do you really mean shoot the pig dead? Do you REALLY MEAN THAT? We must all be extra careful now about making those kind of statements. They are not useful and downright dangerous. You should probably retract that statement and apologize for that emotional rant or someone might take you seriously. Shame on you. Attacking a military man who served his country- double shame.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60812Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:29:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60812TLHMurtha is a Marxist and traitor to this country and those that agree with him are either the same or are brainwashed by the subversive rhetoric of the mainstream media. He should be tried and convicted as a traitor. Wake up America!!!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60814Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:30:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60814Mary H. DoeHistory repeats itself if we don't learn from our past mistakes. I guess our politicos in DC, most of them missed that lesson in high school. We all need to stop belittling others for our differing viewpoints and find a way to get our troops our of the middle of a civil war. We started this war on lies and now it has come back to haunt us. There is no easy solution, but to stay there until we win, how long would that be. My fathers old army unit is still in Korea, over 50 years now. This war is also costing this country, billions and soon trillions. This takes away from important services that our government would have provided, adding to our national debt and to the future of our country, the debt to our children, grandchildren and greatgranchildren. Our leaders need to come together and LISTEN. Get together and work out what needs to be done. All of the military leaders that opposed this surge are gone and the ones the president could find to support it are in now. Those leaders that left knew what was really going on the ground, where the action is taking place and not the resident at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue who lives in a mansion. Its funny that some say things about Murthas military background, but what about Cheney and Bush and their military background, not much there for Bush and non existant for Cheney. Stop picking apart those who are trying to come up with things that will help our troops, like training, proper armor and rest too. Its just crazy that you can't see that Murtha is trying to help our troops and is not soft on defense or the military. The powers that be chose to make a vietnam veteran in Georgia, former senator now, the one that lost limbs in his service for this nation as weak and soft on military, a coward or something to that nature, that was wrong. In closing, the bible says you reap what you sew, well when the recount was going on in Florida in 2000. The GOP and their people sent goons and thugs to stop the legal process, with threats, intimidation and even violence, well that garbage has not come to roost, but its all of us that pays for those few arrongant men. The military knows we support them, but what they fight for is our freedom to discuss this both sides. They go and do this so we have our freedoms. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60816Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:31:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60816Robert E Galeotti, Waynesville, NCWe had no business going there in the first place. The whole world knew it, half of Americans knew it, and everyone inside the Beltway knew it. This was and continues to be a George W Bush vendetta. It is his own little personal war gone awry. And to take advantage of our honorable military forces under false pretenses is the most dishonorable thing he could have done. He is the biggest liar I know. He will go down in history as a criminal. He has dishonored his countrymen, and shamed his family's name. I want an end to our involvement in Iraq NOW. I want my honorable son in the honorable Army back from Iraq NOW. This country should not deploy military forces into battle just because some maniac in the White House has a personal score to settle. I served for 20 years myself, and love the military. But it should be used for honest reasons and as a last resort.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60817Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:32:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60817Jason Ms Walnut Creek CaliforniaMurtha is getting senile in his old, very old age and he is not able to make the right decisions because he lacks common sense. How about giving support to our troops and lets stop bickering about who is running this country, we have a president that the American people elected and it was not Murtha. Let our great nation follow the lead of our great and elected President, The Great George Bush.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60818Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:33:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60818christopher paugh, philadelphia pasemper fi, mr murtha from a fellow Marine/desert storm vet. this is BUSH'S VIETNAM lets but the blame where it deserves to go, his bum vp cheney toohttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60819Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:33:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60819Anton, San Diego, CAthe author here completely missed the point. This war is OVER, it was over a year ago. what Murtha and others like him are proposing is figuring out a way to get out as fast a we can, not micromanaging a war or trying to "win" it, whatever "winning" means at this point. Iraq is not Vietnam, it never was. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60821Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:35:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60821John, Nashville, TN"Treasonism?!" I guess John Kerry's joke didn't miss the mark by too much, huh? Look, I find it all too interesting that now - AFTER the military dug itself into a pit of failure, the correlations are drawn with Vietnam - after Congress gets tired of funding a failed policy, started as the result of doctored, false intelligence ... Congress shouldn't place restrictions on spending - they should simply cut it off and tell the president he has no choice but to bring them home or strand US soldiers in the desert ... alas, they don't have the guts to do that ...http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60825Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:37:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60825rick rodriguez, corpus christi, TXBottom line....An overwhelming majority of Americans (that's the constituency, sir) want this conflict to end. Period, end of statement. We are not a monarchy. It's refreshing to see our Congress at work. Its going to take solid, stand-up Americans like Mr. Murtha, Mr. Baker, and President Carter to get our country back to its preeminent moral standing. Rightly so. Note that although President Carter was almost immediately blitzkreiged by the neocons after publishing his Palestine book, he defended his writing with unflinching logic and reason. Truth never fears the light of day. Our Congress too, needs to be reassured that Americans are behind them when they do what's right for America and Americans.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60827Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:38:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60827Poppy, Fremont,CaFrancona is happy on a bombing spree. Clearly not a very well read man. The military is reducing their recruitment standards which means more Francona's fighting and executing wars. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60841Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:46:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60841H M WinnigThere have already been restrictions on who our troops can engage (by the administration itself) so this piece of writing is for the most part - junk. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60845Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:47:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60845Richard TaylorI think that Mr Murtha CAN spell V-I-E-T-N-A-M quite easily which is why he is doing things as he is. I take it Mr Francona, that you would much prefer the troops be sent into a war zone WITHOUT proper equipment and training? How ever did you live through your time in country?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60847Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:48:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60847Gabe, Philly, PA.Gee, it seeems the mission has changed several times since the start of this mess. Don't forget that authorization was granted because Saddam had WMD's and was going to start giving it to Al Queda. Whoops! none of that was ever going to happen, so quick we have to dream up another reason. I've got it! We need to spread peace and freedom throughout the middle east!! Give me a break people, that is never going to happen. And you can't keep changing the parameters to suit your bloodlust and greed. I congratulate John Murtha for trying to get a hold of this thing before it is any more out of control. The soldiers in our armed forces deserve to be FULLY TRAINED, FULLY ARMED AND ARMORED and GIVEN A CLEAR MISSION. We are not there to babysit Sunnis, Shia and Kurds. Let them fight eachother for control of their own country. Since the original mission was bull crap, we should already have left once it was determined there were no WMD. REPUBLICANS NEED TO STOP KILLING AMERICANS. STOP BEING ON THE SIDE OF THE TERRORISTS! How do you like it?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60848Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:48:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60848David Adams Wixom, MIHello, Yes I remember Vietnam. I remember all the comments about the "Domoino theory" I remember the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. I remember all the "advisory" people that were sent in to "help" the South Vietnamise defend themselves. I remember when American combat troops were sent in to fight for the South Vietnamise.. When are we all going to realize that this is NOT our war, it is a Civil war between 2 different religous, & I use that term VERY loosly, who want to impose their beliefs on others. Our REAL battle ground is here in the USA where some of us go hungry every day, do not have decent medical care, do not get a chance to become beter educated, all because our government chooses to be the Policeman of the World. Now I'm not talking isolationism, but rather seeing what is going on in our cities, towns & yes, in our own neighborhoods, & doing MORE to make them a better place for all BEFORE we decide to do that for others. We can only hope that those in power: A) Truly know what they are doing B) Have the countries BEST interest at heart. C) Have the conviction to make the tough choices. D) Be honest with the public. So to our leaders I, finally, say: Please win the war, you have had ENOUGH time, monies, manpower to do so. DO NOT come crying to us when WE decide that WE see the situation going downhill fast. What will the Iraq of the next 40 years look like ? Now one can tell, but looking at the Vietnam of today may give us a clue. We ARE ALL in this TOGETHER so let US ALL ACT TOGETHER. PEACE to you & yourshttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60850Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:50:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60850Vernondelray, Austin, TXWhy is it every single person I read that supports this failed experiment of pre-emptive war (and at this point is there even a cogent reason to do so?) can't help but label any dissent as treason? Have none of war supporters read history? Have none of them read the quotes of Benjamin Franlkin, Theodore Roosevelt, John Kennedy, etc.. that implore American's citizens to question the actions of her Government, lest bad policy repeat itself? If all one can do is call a dissenter treasonous, that person brings nothing to the discussion, and should save their wrists from carpal-tunnel syndrome. I do support everyone's freedom to express themselves, but am obliged to helpfully point out when one makes a fool of one's self.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60854Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:51:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60854Matt Washington, DCThis is a very simple issue that has been smeared by the out-of-touch neocons like this guy, whoever he is. All that Murtha's bill says is that troops must be 1) trained to basic standards (as opposed to the Pentagon's strategy of consistently lowering standards and sending in kids with 2 weeks of basic training), 2) equipped with proper body armor (as opposed to Bush's strategy of shoving kids out of planes without a parachute) and 3) take enough time between tours of duty to rest (as opposed to sending these brave citizens away for an indentured servitude with the abolition of 'stop loss'). So, if you are against having our troops trained, equipped, and rested, then by all means believe what this guy is spouting above.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60855Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:51:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60855BOB ALB. NEW MEXICOyes keep the war going and the freeloaders at home and all retired money milking the goverment and gusee we cannot take care of our needs now to many been milking the goverment for years . the future ofour military will not come from the past were in trouble enjoy your milking generals..http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60856Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:51:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60856not stupid, seattle areaYour point about "stop loss" is wrong - the issue is that the CONTRACT entered into at the time between the GOVERNMENT and the INDIVIDUAL should NOT be arbitrarily extended at the WHIM OF THE GOVERNMENT. Just as with any other CONTRACT, when it ENDS it ENDS (stop loss is just a form of involuntary servitude) The US should have NEVER BEEN IN IRAQ IN THE FIRST PLACE. King 'Dub-derhead only has 22 months left in his REIGNhttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60909Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:09:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60909JosephThe fact about the "loss" of Vietnam that commentators seem to continually overlook is that it happened after the departure of a highly discredited Nixon Administration that, through its disservice and abuse of power, left the country in no mood whatsoever to publicly support a military challenge against North Vietnam when control by that country was taken of Saigon just a little more than 2 years after the Paris Peace agreement was signed. It's very reasonable to believe that if the trauma of Watergate never happened with its aftermath of a weakened Ford Presidency and a dispirited, tired public; a conquest by North Vietnam of its southern neighbor never would have occurred - at least not as soon as 1975. Certainly not if an unweakened Richard Nixon, who would have still been president at that time was demonstrating as much readiness to use the same level of military force in 1975 as he used against North Vietnam in the weeks preceding 1973 peace agreement. While Vietnam leaves us with many lessons about a lot things (including the dangers of war's micromanagement by politicians) it also teaches about the dangers of trying to maintain public support for wars waged by leaders with diminishing credibility. There are plenty of historic parallels demonstrating how this is something that seriously undermines a government's successful prosecution of war. That's one of the essential reasons for failure in Vietnam. It's a major reason we're experiencing not only the trauma of Iraq, but the inevitable internal political divisions and polarization that come when lengthy, bloody military actions with ambiguous objectives are taken for reasons that, over the long haul, don't stand up well to public scrutiny. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60911Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:11:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60911Alec D., Kenosha, WIThe time has come to expose the true un-Americans, the ones who don't support the troops and those who choose to shred the constitution, rather than support and defend it. The current administration is throwing away lives to support their failed policies and to cover their tracks. They reduce support for those injured and need longterm care but call us treasonous for wanting to end the bloodshed. They haul out tired fear-based tactics such as the "fight 'em there so we don't have to fight them there" and raising terror alerts whenever they need to misdirect the public. They say putting more troops in harm's way is the best way to honor the dead by continuing the fight - the same insanity that led to 50K+ killed in Vietnam. Right is wrong and down is up with this administration. Tony Snow and LCOL Francona are hacks & parrots. We've allowed draft dodging neocon weasels to throw away all our built up international good will, take a surplus and turn it into a massive deficit while calling the constitution just "a piece of paper". Hauling out the current administration in leg-irons would be an appropriate end to their reign of terror.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60912Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:11:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60912Philadelphia, PAIronically, these Neocons who blast Murtha for his military background also support a President who skirted his own military duty, but since then, has led us headstrong into a QUAGMIRE, a civil war, a dead end of the worst kind. After years of observing this neocon behavior to repeat whatever it is that they hear from Fox News or Rove and Cheney's White House, I remain completely mystified as to why they simply just go along with it all. Perhaps these are the individuals receiving the biggest tax cuts, benefitting from illegal alien labor, or enjoying the ripe corporate contracts from Iraq, because if these disciples of our war criminal president are actually religious zealots, then I have to wonder just how their God or Jehovah, or whatever it is that they like to call this being would react to such indifference when it comes to the death of hundreds of thousdands of people.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60913Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:11:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60913Kevin, Phoenix AZ"not" stupid obviously has no clue about stop loss, I suggest you actually read a military enlistment contract before you rant about government whims.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60914Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:12:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60914A. VerellenMurtha is protecting our troops. He is making sure they aren't sent in unprepared. Also, he is making sure they can't be sent back without proper rest. Next, he making sure they can't have their contracts extented by extra time. Example, you sign up for 6 years. You do all 6 years and they force you to reenlist for another 6 years. These things are good for stopping the post tramic stress of war. He is protecting the troops from our government.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60915Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:12:33 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60915Benny Hayes, Bainbridge, GeorgiaThe point is, we, as Americans, voted the elected people to office. The people we elected are the ones doing the job we elected them to do. Therefore, as Americans, and as a Vietnam Vet., we must support our elected officials in what ever decisions they make, even if it is with our life, because we are Americans. If you are an American, support our country or get out. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60917Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:13:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60917Pete Farris, St. Michaels, MDFor those too young to remember him, Vo Nguyen Giap was the North Vietnamese minister of defense. The Tet offensive in which the Viet Cong were virtually wiped out, along with a fair number of North Vietnamese regulars, was his idea. In his words, he believed there would be apopular uprising in supprt of the offensive. Still according to him, North Vietnam was ready to surrender after the failure of Tet. But then they noticed the reaction to Tet in the American press, among American lawmakers, and with the American public. The North Vietnamese, he says, realized that if they could hang in there they would win ultimately because of the negativity being directed against the war, primarily through the press. So we lost a war in which we won every battle. Jack Murtha and many members of Congress are acting as if they're trying to effect the same result again.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60918Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:13:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60918Mike, Sheridan, Arkansas...and when this tactic (the surge) doesn't end this war, you can blame it on the dems & lefties which is all this administration wants to do... find scapegoats to which to shift the blame for this distrastrous, foolish, insane war. A very modern definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The Iraq situation is a perfect example. Someone has to stop the insanity.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60920Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:14:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60920Kyle BurkFreakin hilarious. Does this guy really believe we could've "won" the Vietnam war if we just could have avoided all that micro-managing? Yeah, if we'd only have been able to kill a few million more of those Vietnamese then communism wouldn't have then spread across the whole of Southeast Asia country by country... Oh... nevermind... http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60922Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:15:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60922S.Thiede,St Louis MoI think it's safe to say that most of these comments ridiculing LTCOL Francona's comments never served and if they have, they are now clueless and blinded by the liberal message.Mistakes made?Yes.Not unlike mistakes made in other wars or conflicts.The bottom line is WE all volunteered to serve and unless you are ordered to not follow LOAC,your mission is to see it through,Period.We have seen a democratic president in action with Somalia.Talk about gutless http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60925Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:15:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60925G Cumming Mattawan, MI.Seems to me we should leave the war and the fighting to those that know best. What makes Murtha the great military know it all? He is way past his time. Leave this war to the bright minds that our military has and it will be over soon. "Get the heck out of the kitchen and let the cook do the job." And another thing, stop the restrictions on where we fight and when we fight. Why can't you so called know it alls keep out of fights you have no knowledge of and no desire to participate in. Stay the heck out!! God Bless our military.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60926Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:16:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60926Mark Dougherty, Johnstown, PaI am a retired soldier. I was on border duty in Germany when the wall came down. I realized then that containment works. This was an ill advised war created by people in government that have no idea how or why to prosecute one. Bush and Chaney lashed out like a wounded beast and got OUR nation, of which we are ALL part of, into another Vietnam. Neither of them nor their neocon allies have the balls to admit much less correct the errors that they personally have commited. Jack Murtha is the real deal! He has the foresight to see what is coming because he walked the walk before he talked the talk. He has the balls neccessary to end this quagmire. I AM a Jack Murtha Democrat and I worked to get him reeelected!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60927Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:16:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60927Joe AlphabetPersonally, I was against the war because I figured that Saddam killed more Muslim's than Jews or Christians. I always figured he would make a better ally than enemy but considering he paid 25k per suicide bomber killing Jews in Israel how much would he have spent paying suicide bombers attacking the US or US interests. I am no peacenick I am a vet and pro military but it pisses me off to see soldiers tried for murder. The Democrats have 1 goal in general and that is to make the US into a 3rd world @#$%^&**. Waxman was contacted by the insurgents killing US Marines in Falluja (sp) and help funnel 250K + in first aid through his connection to the people killing US Marines (to me that is treason). Personally if we get nuked in a major US cesspool we can send liberals in to clean it up - with no protective gear and no potassium iodide so we don't have to deal with them voting in the next election. The question is we all took the oath we do we get to kill our "foreign enemies and domestic".... and I hear the AW Ban is getting reintroduced I wonder why? It's not for my safety.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60930Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:18:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60930Scott, Auburn, New YorkNot included in my previous comment was the difference between Vietnam and our current situation in Iraq. The civil war in Vietnam was not created by us. The civil war in Iraq can be attributed to the United States involvement by extremists in the middle east. The Iranian government is already spreading lies to its civilians and to others that the united states is trying to encourage this sectarian violence. If we DONT clean up our mistake, there are going to be alot more people over there who hate us. I believe that our troops deserve all the money and training needed to clean up a mistake before it becomes much much worse. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60931Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:19:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60931MA, Atlanta, GAI agree with Franco.....I am so sick and tired of the people who bitch, moan and complain about this war and about sending over more troops and doing whatever is necessary to win. Do any of you remember that not too long ago the Democrats wanted us to send over more troops, time and time again, and were calling for Donald Rumsfeld's dismissal,etc.? Then when Rumsfeld resigned, and the now the President wants to do what the Democrats have been asking for all along, all of a sudden the Democrats now want to bitch, moan and complain about doing exactly what they wanted to begin with...How quickly the people forget!!! We MUST win this war!!!We have been attacked over and over and over (too many times to count) by terrorists and the only way to stop it from happening again is to stamp out as many of them as possible. In the war in Iraq, we need to "bomb the living sh-t" out of EVERYONE (like we did in Japan....or has everyone forgotten just how effective that was)? We haven't been attacked by them since..... If we eliminate the terrorists we face today, we will deter them in the future. We need to show the world that no one can mess with America..we won't stand for it. We are just asking for attacks every day that we continue fighting with each other about how to win the war in Iraq...they see us battling each other and realize just how weak a country we are when we are not willing to stand up and fight to WIN!!!!! They know they can attack us many times over again and we will DO NOTHING!!!!! We must teach the rest of the world (those countries who do not know it already) that we will not stand idly by and wait until we are attacked again and then when we are, we will not sit around and debate and talk for years about what to do about it. For those who are to "weak-kneed" to bomb another country as many times as necessary, how did you feel when they bombed us on 9/11? How about the World Trade Center? How about all the other attacks that killed our people? Are you sitting back waiting for the next one only to say "Oh no, it happened again", or something like that? These terorists do not recognize anything we are doing or saying to discourage them....the only thing that will MEAN anything to them is for us to show them just how serious we are and that they don't ever want to mess with us again!!!!!!! http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60932Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:19:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60932Craig Washington State. Ok so We keep the troops in Iraq. We go along with cutting the funds for them to complete the mission, and the President deploys the troops needed. And when all the money is spent We tell the troops they have to stay as there, as there is no money to bring them home either. We need to reunite this country n quit this endless woa is Me crapp. Complete the mission/ support the troopps with all means needed.Dont let 1 do the job that needs to be done by 2. Remember the outcry over the killing fields when We pulled out of SE Asia? More people are killed in this great country to Murder, drunk drivers. etc..... grabb Your kahunas n act like u have a pair.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60935Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:20:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60935David, Jacksonville, FLThe war in Iraq was a strategically bad move from the get go. Aside from the obvious sectarian pitfalls, which many warned of before the war, we as a country are not safer today than before the war in Iraq. The world has been made more dangerous by this action. Bin Laden wanted to draw the U.S. into an intractable war in Afghanistan, as his group had done with the former Soviet Union. The Bush administration played right into his hands by attacking Iraq. Better to have continued to control Afghanistan and go after the terrorist’s networks than to have given Bin Laden such a recruitment and training tool as Iraq. The question that needs to be asked is: Why did we go into Iraq if we knew that failure would be “a catastrophe” for generations to come? The possibility for failure was always there. We have had a lack of wisdom of leadership and the world is a much more dangerous place than it need be.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60937Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:23:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60937R.J>MowerySeveral good points have been expressed but te single sole solution this bungled mess of Bush's should have been and still is "overwhelming force"!I want our troops home! Vietnam was a horrendous mistake for us to ever have been involved in. Now that our learned leaders can't see beyond their noses, that there is and can be no political settlement until the violence is quelled and absolute law is acheieved. So the only answer is 500K PLUS troops. Take total control of the waring factions and the country, install marshall law and THEN, negotiate a settlement to this mind boggling mess our "leaders" have created. Lastly. It is simply sickening to hear Bush supporters talk like we the American people should support this assinine approach in Iraq. Are they so politicaaly attached to the moron in the Whitehouse they cannot deal with this realisticly and logically? Our country is going to hell and our leaders bicker about Iraq like it was some gemstone.And on top that the chief moron in charge wants to start another war and asks us to beleieve him? How pathetic is all of this? Lets do what we have to do and get out the God forsaken hell hole of the Middle East!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60940Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:24:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60940Michael BrownRep Murtha issued the appropriate response to the "NEOCON" Parinoid view of the world. Is choking off funds the message we want to send to our young men and women in Uniform. I do not think so. ! It is too late to point the finger and hyperventilate about "Who shot Jane". The Answer does not lay within Washington's lobbyist infested Senate and Congress. We as a nation need to find the best of all minds to present a product that is workable to all. For far too long we have relied on the Good old boy network. It is a shame that many of them have lost touch with reality. They dream of days long ago. Lets be real, practical, companionate, and most of all American. We cannot nor should not impose our Ideological and religious fundamentals upon those who do not seek or want. Soon there will be a return to the cold war of the 80’s. Are we ready, I suspect we are not? SFC Michael Brown U.S. ARMY RETIRED. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60943Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:26:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60943concerned in Calgary, ABIt's interesting how the right is now trying to blame the failure in Iraq on those who have had enough. Mr. Murtha's actions are a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of factors that have led to the mess in Iraq. Bush and his crew launched this useless war and screwed it up. Now they are trying to say..."if only the left would stop interfering we would win". trying to re-write the history books won't pull the wool over people's eyeshttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60944Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:26:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60944LauraTODD ............ Thank you for putting it so simply. My son is in Afghanistan, and for all of you men and women out there, I pray for and think of YOU - not the idiots we have surrounding us!! God Bless you and all you believe in. Go get um Tiger!!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60945Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:27:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60945Peace Through Strength, Crestview, FloridaI am so sick of being called a NEOCON or a "Lap Dog" for the adminisration simply because I agree with many of there policies. This war in Iraq has not been fought properly, that is a fact. It was fought so we don't upset people like Mr tepper and others in this Blog. War is ugly and when fought to win it ends relatively fast. We should have beat the enemy into submission. This new plan seems to have that idea in mind. Whether Sunni or Shiite we need to make this so painful on them that they quit. Right now the reverse is happening because of people like Murtha. Colonel, you are right on the money.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60948Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:28:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60948Cpt Wayne SircoulombNo matter how you spin it Ricky, our current emperor has no clothes.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60950Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:29:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60950concerned in Calgary, ABIt's interesting how the right is now trying to blame the failure in Iraq on those who have had enough. Mr. Murtha's actions are a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of factors that have led to the mess in Iraq. Bush and his crew launched this useless war and screwed it up. Now they are trying to say..."if only the left would stop interfering we would win". trying to re-write the history books won't pull the wool over people's eyeshttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60951Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:29:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60951John C. T. GreenThe U.S. Constituion places the authority over the military in the hands of the Executive Branch. The House of Representatives have already given the President the authority to wage this war and he is doing so. The House of Representative has no constitutional role in advising the Executive Branch one authority has been given. The only option the House of Representatives has is to cease funding the war entirely since actually surrendering is not part of their constitutional role either. However, cutting all funding is surrendering under another name and the Democrats are too cowardly to take the political heat of that act. A non-binding resolution of their disagreement is testimony to their cowardice. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60952Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:30:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60952Joe I've lost a tremendous amount of respect for the military because of military men like Francona you see on TV or print. We cannot trust a military man to decide when to continue or to end war. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60955Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:31:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60955Soldier from OklahomaAbout stop-loss: Everyone who signs a contract into the military signs an EIGHT year contract. The contract will stipulate how much time on active duty your initial tour will be, whether that be 3,4, or 5 years. After that, the remaining portion must be served in either the Guard, Reserve, or IRR. To say that stop-loss is illegal and soldiers can't be arbitrarily extended is wrong. Soldiers can be ordered to stay on active duty for their commitment if those appointed above them say so. Simple enough. It's happened to me.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60956Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:31:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60956T , OhioCut off money in the middle. Only the politicians can think of something so absurd. If a group of surgeons starts an operation and halfway through the hospital admin desides that this type of sugery is not in their best interests do they shut off power to the operating room and take away meds and instruments and let the patient die? NO! No matter now that the reason for going was bad. The fact that our troops are there and that area is waiting to destroy itself the moment we walk away, means we can't just shut off the money. Get a strategy to withdraw and get Iraq bad on its feet but to cut and run like democrats want is insane. Lets see how many die in masses then. Not to mention the ENTIRE goal of terrorism is to effect change by terror. So allowing roadside bombs to drive out the US military would be the equivalent of allowing them (terrorists) to win WWIII. It would generate 100 more 9/11's. Was the reason for war mis-represented, yes. Should we just quit and run in the middle, no. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60957Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:32:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60957D. Brummell, Washington, DCYour comments seem to discredit Mr. Murtha's service in Vietnam, or didn't you know he served and was awarded a Bronze Star with V and two Purple Hearts. Why draw attention to Mr. Murtha being a Marine Reservists, or don't you think reservist provide credible service. Not a fan of Mr. Murtha's but as a veteran/retiree I find the basis of your commentary disingenous at best. To be balanced why didn't you mention Washington'S inteference with Marine Corps commanders during the first battle of Fallujah.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60960Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:32:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60960Chris Marlowe, Hanoi, VietnamImplicit in your argument is the belief that somehow the US could have won the Vietnam war, if only Congress had not intervened and cut off funds. That is a lie. The Vietnamese were fighting a war of national liberation, first against the French, then the Japanese, then the French again, then the Americans. The Vietnamese lost 3M dead, and would have been prepared to continue the fight even if another 3M were killed. The only way the Americans would have won is if they gassed, nuked and then plowed the whole country. With 90% of the Iraqi population wanting the Americans to leave, I would submit that the only way for America to win in Iraq is to gas,kill and bury ALL 25M Iraqis. That is the only American chance of victory. And if you don't like Iran, then gas, kill and bury ALL 70M Iranians, because they are not going to buy American democracy if it is brought to them at the end of a gun. Lt. Col. Francone, if you really love the US, then you should be demanding that all American troops be sent to Afghanistan and Pakistan to hunt down and exterminate al-Qaeda. Those are the people who really hit America on 9/11. Iraq and Iran are just useless distractions. What are you going to say when al-Qaeda hits the US with WMDs? And stop letting Elliott Abrams tell you what to think...http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60962Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:32:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60962Soldier in oklahomaOh and Matt from a few posts up: No soldier or Marine goes to war with 2 weeks of basic training. Marine Corps is 13 weeks plus infantry training. Army is 9 or 10 plus your Advanced training, which is anywhere from 5 weeks to a year long. Don't spout off stuff you don't know about.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60974Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:35:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60974William McDonough, Hauppauge, New YorkDear J.D. Troutdale,Oregon: Speaking as someone who lost friends on 9/11/01, let me please express my appreciation of your determination to remember those who died. Now please, stop using my dead friends as an excuse to call for the killing of other people. Do you remember 9/11? Well, that's great. But what you're remembering is your sudden feeling of vulnerability, your own fear. Fear is the terrorist's weapon. Fear is the tool of those who would destroy our freedoms, and use our own strength against us by provoking us into actions that isolate our nation from our allies, that weaken our military by putting them in the middle of long-term hostilities, and that turn us on one another in our suspicion and our desire to be safe. Safety is an illusion. You could be hit by a car tomorrow. You could be murdered by a burglar in your own home. Live your life, and do not give in to fear. that is our true strength.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#60979Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:37:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:60979bob youngYou are so wrong and so right. Yes, there are parallels with the Vietnam experience. Like Vietnam, we went into Iraq without any clear understanding of why we were going there. Someone thought that we could defeat the Russians by bombing Hanoi. Today it seems so absurd. Now,President Bush thinks we can end terrorism by going to Baghdad. History will also label that as absurd. We never "brought the Vienamese to their knees". If we had stayed one hundred years that would not have happened. Read Robert McNamara's autobiography and you will see that the whole thing was a fool's errand with no possibility of a worthwhile outcome. Likewise, the Iraq war. What should have been done is what was originally planned. Protect Saudi Arabia and liberate Kuwait. Not go to Iraq. Unfortuneately , we have a president that can not understand the difference between Saudi Arabia and Iraq. And, equally sad is that he still has not discovered how bad the advice is that he has been given by the "old cold warriors".http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61076Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:18:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61076Rational Mike, Commack, NYHonestly - I love this liberal clap-trap about the "public" not supporting the war - when was the last time a Democratic administration listened to the "public" when the administration decided it was time for Americans to die? Serbia/Kosovo? Vietnam? Irrespective of how you feel about the government, we elect these people (and hope they appoint qualified others - most of whom must be vetted and approved by Congress thru hearings anyway) to steward the country in all aspects of their jobs. How can this Congress approve the new Gemeral returning to Iraq, then disapprove of his plan for additional troops- what did they "approve" of then?? His haircut? His smile?? Did they not have ample opportunity both before and during the hearing to quiz him of his plan and requirements?? It is the height of silliness, and unfortunately the Democrats are letting politics get in the way of a unified approach to the conflict. If the Administration flip/flopped as leading Democrats have on this subject (are you listening Ms. Clinton, Mr. Biden et. al.) all of whom were screaming for Mr. Rumsfled's head when he didn't want more troops - I think Gen Shinsheki (sic) got more publicity for his view on the pre-war requirements of the requirement of additional troops, and the idiotic "Powell Doctrine" as well last October than American Idol - we would all be hiding in our basements and afraid to go to shopping malls. The only way to defeat these terrorists (and that's what they are) is much the same way Israel did when it (formerly) uccessfully held off enemies from all sides in making a successful democracy in the Middle East - clobber them beyond recognition, leaving no doubt as to the victor http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61078Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:18:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61078Ay Jay, TXI think what he is saying is we don't need 535 incompetent and conflicted and politically motivated "generals" in Washington trying to run a war that can easily be won by our generals and soldiers in the field if we would just give them an objective, and a goal, and tell them to get it done, and provide them what they ask for. It is THAT SIMPLE. This is EXACTLY why the constitution names the president commander in chief and limits the role of congress in both making treaties and in fighting war.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61080Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:20:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61080Andrew Dimock, Palo Alto, CA.Francona can't accept the plain fact that there are problems that can't be solved through superior firepower. It's irrelevant that the Iraqi insurgents, like the Vietnamese before them, can't defeat the US Army and the Marine Corps in a conventional battle on open terrain. Why would they fall for that? Iraq is their country; they have nowhere else to go, and they'll fight occupying forces for decades if they have to. Americans who cling to the idea that our defeat in Vietnam was the fault of weak-willed politicians and traitorous journalists are the victims of magical thinking. The world's too dangerous a place, and the foreign policy challenges are all too real, to replace analysis with fantasies about civilian betrayal. For the first time in my life, I agree with Pat Buchanan on something. He said recently that it's obvious that Iraq is a defeat, not for American arms, but for American policy. Any steps we take now will be nothing more than managing the consequences of our folly.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61085Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:22:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61085Sean, TorringtonDraft Bush 2004 Voters! The media tells me that rural soldiers are dying disproportionaly in Iraq. Interesting, because rural voters supported Bush disproportionately in 2004. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61086Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:23:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61086C. Webster RoseBut this isn't Vietnam!!!!!!!! This isn't even the same century! To play partsian games with one man's intention of thought is a very dangerous thing to do. I understand why you question his thinking? At least it's not considered treason. Rep. Murtha will ALWAYS have the troops welfare the first priority. The American thing to do is to debate the options given to us by the Democrat's and Republican's and see which, if any make any sense and if not do what it takes to make any idea acceptable.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61087Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:23:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61087Mindi, SacramentoFor all of you still trying with all your might to connect Iraq to 9/11...once and for all, Iraq did not attack us, Iraqi citizens did not attack us. The people behind 9/11 are still out there (Anyone remember Bin Laden? how many were Saudi citizens?) The people that harbored the terrorists that were responsible for 9/11, the Taliban and Al Queda are making a come back in Afghanistan, and have safe haven in parts of Pakistan, our ally. And maybe, just maybe if the current administration's policies were making even a small amount of longer-term, measurable progress after four years in Iraq using the same old policies, more people would be behind the plan. Unfortunately the policies are not working, and this "new" surge policy is not new, surges have been tried before and have not made any measurable long-term progress. It has been enormous mistake after enormous mistake. I would be a fool not to question the administration, especially since my loved one's life is at stake in Baghdad.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61094Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:25:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61094Buzz Anderson, Solvang, CAOH lord another rightwing shill for the Chimply McFlightsuit way of thinking. Charge like a bull into a china shop and then attack the patriotism of those opposed to the charge. Especially those poor deluded fools who think the terrorists are going to jump into ships and airplanes and follow us here and we'll all be wearing burkas and bowing down to them....ahhhhhhhhhh. Lord but it must be sad to be that delusional. Vietnam was a war based upon lies and ideology and so is Iraq. There is NO victory in Iraq and never will be. The main reason is their religion dictates their lives and it is all they know. The very idea that we can force democracy at the point of a gun is as bad as the terrorists thinking they can force their ideology based upon terror. Never work. We cannot win there, that is no defeatist, but simply the truth and that is where the Neo Clowns have trouble...owning up to the truth. So they try to couch their words in lies, half truths and slime attacks. Why is it people like this athur and others still try and push the BS that Vietnam was "winnable" and that Iraq is just a few more bullets and deaths away from "victory"? Neo Clowns are perhaps the greatest threat to democracy and freedom this world has ever seen.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61096Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:26:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61096lloyd robertsMr. Troutdale from Oregon, keeps bringing up 911 as it relates to Iraq. Well, here's one thing I remember about 911, living in New York City and having associates and friends lost; we were attacked by 19 hijackers. 15 of them were from one country alone, Saudi Arabia. Not one was from Iraq, not one. But 15 of the 19 from one country alone and not one from the country we attacked. Doesn't it seem a little weird to you that we would attack a country that didn't attack us and was a stable country before we went in there and messed it up. We may not have liked Saddam, but one thing is for sure; When he was there, there was stability and Islamic fundamentalism under his rule was not tolerated. George Bush by going into Iraq was not fighting terrorism but a personal war all his own. He owes this country and it's citizens some honesty and respect but I doubt we'll get it from a president with the mind of a child. As far as Mr. Francona is concerned, you know what I'm talking about, you just can't admit it. We fu----ed up big, big, big, big time. And by the way, we are there so we might as well finish it and I support sending more troops because we are stuck there now. But any justification for W's war is impossible, immoral, dishonest and un-Americanhttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61098Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:27:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61098Peter A. Alaimo, Phoenix, AZThe artificial construct of British Imperialism called Iraq was destined for defacto or dejure tripartite division into Kurdish, Shiite, and Sunni states the moment the ugly glue of the Baathist dictatorship was removed. That accomplished, further destabilization of an already volatile region becomes inevitable, pulling Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, and Turkey into the maelstorm. In short, the problem never was and never will be solvable with military force, and THAT is the correct parallel to our Vietnam experience. The ignorance and arrogance of this administration has done damage which will take decades to repair. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61099Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:27:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61099Disgruntled Sailor Soldier in Oklahoma, Are you sure you have the facts right? You should start asking the Navy REservists about the 2 weeks (yes as in 14 days) of ground combat training at Fort Jackson they received before going boots on the ground in the sandbox. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61100Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:28:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61100David, San Francisco, CAMurtha is proposing oversight of Bush's misguided, poorly planned war. In November of '06, the country spoke. The top voting issue was Iraq and the country repudiated the GOP rubber stamp of approval that reigned for 6 years. Murtha's proposing a new policy. It's a policy that reflects what he said on the campaign trail. It's a policy that reflects common sense. We've seen little common sense from the Bush (Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Cheney, Wolfowitz neocon warmonger) administration. The war is now older than our efforts in WWII. So Murtha's proposing efforts to start to draw down our presence in Iraq and attend to other global US interests. He's proposing that the soldiers be trained, equipped and rested for battle. He's not micromanaging anything. He's doing the people's work in the Congress. It's a proper role and it's what he was elected to do.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61102Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:29:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61102Andrew Perkins, Portland ORAnother day, another neocon rewriting history. According to our esteemed author, Richard Nixon was on the verge of winning the Vietnam War before he was called off by the weak-kneed liberal appeasers. And John Murtha's plan (to only deply troops who are well-equipped and rested) is compared to LBJ's micromanagement of the war back in the 60s. Sir, the "micromanagement" you speak of had nothing to do with the preparedness or equipping of troops in the field. LBJ's mistake was "micromanaging" actual battlefield tactics and strategy from Washington. To compare this to Murtha's entirely reasonable proposal -- only deploy well-equipped, well-rested and well-trained troops -- is comparing apples to lawn chairs. If we are to listen to the conservative pundits (you know, the guys who call a plan to equip and train the troops a "slow bleed" strategy -- who at the Fox Networks thought THAT one up, I wonder?), the way to "support" the troops is to pour them, unprepared, unequipped and untrained, into a meat grinder, and claim that anyone who opposes such idiocy is a freedom-hating terrorist-lover who wants America to lose, and (unbelievably) further claim that they "did not learn the lessons of Vietnam." This, I'm afraid, is a flaw that is more applicable to the author of the current commentary than to a real war veteran like John Murtha.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61103Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:29:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61103Paul H. We lost this "war' the day we first set foot on foriegn soil based upon a lie-or rather a set of lies, demeaning the US, our Constitution, the Office of the President, and countless lives. Viet Nam? Heck, this is worse...and by the way, we lost 55,000 of our people in that conflict. Bring our people home.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61106Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:33:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61106not looking for easy answersWhy is it Washington always comes up the easy answers. Did they not learn that in real life there is no easy answers. That is what Mr. Murtha's plain seems to be an easy way to get out. But, there is no easy way out. It is not worth doing unless we do it right.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61107Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:33:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61107Doug, Akron, OHIn the immortal words of Col. Jessup: "You friggin' people (liberals) have no idea how to defend a country." Whether we like it or not, we're in Iraq. Support our troops, give them what they need to finish the job, then bring them home to a hero's welcome. They deserve nothing less. God bless America!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61114Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:36:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61114M Kellum, Espyville, PAI, as a military brat, have felt we have fought this Irag thing wrong. I believe in hitting them hard and deadly. We have lost too many good lives over there, and we cannot pull out or not give the ones there the proper equipment to fight with. We haven't won a war since Word War II---now there the men in charge knew how to fight. Notice how fast Japan capitulated after the A-bombs. We need to talk softly and carry a BIG STICK. I am tired of being a country looked down on. If we don't win now, we will be on the receiving end of every terrorist attack, here and overseas. This is not a political action but an action to protect everyone from these fundamentalist Muslims. Not all Muslims are bad, just the brain washed ones by crazed by Mullahs. Plus we do not have to fight by the Geneva Convention rules. They are not uniformed troops of a world recognized power, they are mentally deranged demons in civilian clothes who fight dirty---so let the the Army and Marines fight them anyway they want. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61115Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:36:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61115A Soldier, LSA Anaconda, IraqI would agree. I just wish others felt the same. Like our leaders, congress, the senate. If they support us, then give us what we need to win. Soldiers, equipment, training, do what ever it takes. I can't believe that the American people have forgotten that it is easier to bargain from a position of power. When you win, we can say “it should have been handled differently”. Then apply what we have learned to the next military action. If we lose, we will have wasted lives, time, money, and our reputation. If we lose we lose everything. Congressman Murtha is getting to be an embarrassment, he may have been a soldier but that was a long time ago, and I think he has forgotten what it means, winning is very important, otherwise we sacrifice in vain. Why are we throwing it all away? This is an all volunteer service, the war has been going on long enough that one would think "there is a very real chance I could find myself in harms way". The leadership here are not much different, they tend to over react to every bump in the road. When you fly as many hours as we do, and perform as many missions as we do, bad things happen. No one is to blame; it's part of the deal. If we are going to police the world we should be willing to finish what we start. What we have learned from past wars and conflicts, we have either failed to remember and apply, or we have chosen to disregard in the interest of saving money. Every great army and every great leader of those armies have applied two basic principles. Take away the enemy’s ground, and occupy the ground you have taken. It is a simple process. We must deny the enemy any place where they can re-supply, regroup or reorganize. It will be the only way we will be able to end the violence that happens here every day. We have become crippled by the belief that we will save every soldier thru the use of technologically advanced equipment. It all comes down to the soldier with their boots on the ground. The soldier that sometimes makes mistakes engaging the wrong target, or causes the death of one of our own thru some other action. There have been deaths from fratricide, suicide, errant rounds fired into crowds of people, but these are the exception, not the rule. Soldiers today are very well trained and are subject to unbelievable scrutiny. All engagements are investigated. The rules of engagement, and weapons control measures and statuses are complicated to the point of absurd. Why, because we are micro managed from the top down. We are teaming with “Monday morning quarterbacks” looking to find fault with everything we do. Daily we are briefed on a course of action that we be retracted, restated or removed before the end of our duty day. We have made this armed conflict into a bureaucratic nightmare. I doubt the American people know, or would begin to understand the leadership challenges that are faced here every day. We are short on parts, equipment, supplies, some times hot water and even electricity. Soldiers buy their own batteries and other equipment so they will have it when they need it, and they still are motivated to do this mission. We are here with our hands tied, our political leaders pulling the carpet out from under our feet, broadcasting their plans to “slowly bleed” Bush’s war and hampering our efforts to take the fight to the enemy. For this there will be a day of reckoning. The American fighting spirit may not reside within the confines of Washington DC, congress, or on the floor of the senate, but I will tell you it is alive and well here in Iraq. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61119Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:37:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61119Michael T, Baltimore, MDNeither resolve nor political influence nor insufficient funds were the reason we were unsuccessful in Vietnam. You can't slaughter people into agreeing with you. That's the lesson of Vietnam, and it isn't Murtha who has trouble remembering that. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61120Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:37:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61120Ay Jay, TXWhen it comes down to it, the Democrats in congress, and the liberals in the press are giving our enemies worldwide hope, and boosting their morale. Guess where that boosted morale will be directed: Killing Americans and our allies, whereever they can get at us. Thanks for dragging this out, making it worse, and providing our enemies worldwide with inspiration that we can be cowed and broken, and provoked into retreat. If they can do it in Iraq, they will believe they can do it EVERYWHERE. Some of you people need to read "About Face" by Col David Hackworth. You will learn almost all the crap you ever heard about Vietnam IS mostly crap. I'll leave it at that.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61122Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:38:33 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61122Phred, Unadilla, NEWell sir - i WAS involved with the military prior to the big Vietnam buildup. And i remember being lectured to by an Army officer who stated very clearly that "it is the policy of the US Military NEVER to get involved in a land war on the continent of Asia". Why? Because, he said such a conflict could never be won. Bascially it was because 1) we could not isolate the battlefield, 2) lines of supply, resupply, etc were long, and 3) the enemy had a virtual endless supply of resources, men, and territory to work with (think Napoleon in Russia). As for the so called Tonkin Gulf incident - i had a relative on one of those destroyers at the time and he told me NOTHING happened. We were lied into that war just as we've be lied into this one. Only Congress can get us out - does one really believe the idiots who got us into this mess have a clue about how to get us out???http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61124Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:39:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61124julian Norwalk, cawhy don't we hand over America to bin laden, and let Murtha his vice regent. and start teaching our kids to kill themselves and kill innocents people. Let pour wives wear berka, and black long dresses. let get rid of bikinis'and let the Islamic rule america. I think this is the best solution to all these mumble, jhumbo of these socialist demorcrats. While we are there, let hugo chavez our prime minister. America and the world would be a peacefull place to live in. Go Murthatalqaedalovers.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61126Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:40:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61126Bill White, Hayward, WIBlaming Murtha for trying to get us out this war? That Murtha should remember Vietnam? Maybe Bush should have "remembered" Vietnam and we wouldn't be in Iraq in the first place. Oh yes Bush was awol and drunk, how could he remember.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61131Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:41:24 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61131Bob Moore, Washington, D.C.Col, We had no business fighting the Vietnamese any more than we have the right to kill Iraqis. These impoverished people are not a threat to the U.S. and never were! Neither country threatened or attacked us, nor did they have the ability or will to do so. In both cases we ended up being the enemy. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61132Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:41:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61132Jesse ColletteIt's hard to know how to respond to Lt. Col. Rick Francona since the war is somewhat beyond the territory that the word "misguided" covers. Put another way, if "W" had been president during world war II, he might have briefly retaliated against the Japanese after Pearl Harbor and then declared war on Bolivia - after putting them on the Axis of Evil list. The Nazi's might have made the AOE list but W would have found a way to rationalize not doing anything about them. If W had been president in 1941, we might still be fighting WWII, or worse yet, we may have lost. Fighting a war takes intelligence and persistence. If it took low IQ and short attention span, perhaps we would have won by now. I think what a lot of people are concerned about the lack of direction in the war on terror. They see the war in Iraq as a diversion, based on lies. Many people wonder who is right in this conflict. During the attacks of 9-11, the terrorists killed 3,000 innocent civilians. The US military has killed at least 10-fold that many, and for what? Osama Bin Laden and his lackeys still taunt us with impunity. Every time we arrest or kill innocent civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan we probably create two or three more Osamas. People across the Arab world (and the rest of the world for that matter) distrust us and think we are a country lead by someone who lacks common sense or intelligence. I'm all for Murtha tying this war effort in knots, it's going nowhere anyway. As for easily lead people like Francona, is your son in Iraq? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61133Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:41:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61133George Irwin, PAThe Marine guarding Heaven's Gate has standing orders to kick Jack Murtha's butt if he appears there- which I highly doubt.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61139Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:43:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61139Max, Chicago,ILMy son is in the military and he said the moral is low because of the liberals want to cut the funds to the troops and just pull out. They see good things in Iraq that don't even get reported by the news media. All the troops want is for americans to let them finish the job. Murtha is just playing politics with our kids lives. If we don't have the will to finish the mission we will look weak enough for more moslem extremists to think now is the time to attack us on our own soil. Wake up America and let our brave young military members finish their job. I am very proud of your service to our country.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61141Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:44:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61141M. KellumMr. Lloyd Roberts---yes, the highjackers were from Saudi Arabia---trained to be terrorists, just like the ones from Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Irag and Lebanon. Irag and Iran had training programs and wealth pouring into the terrorists coffers to back them, buy more weapons, and train them in blowing themselves up and then paying their families thousands of dollars for doing it in the name of Allah. We can't back down like we did with Korea and Viet Nam. We need strong language to inform these violent people, we as Americans will not tolerate it and we will wipe them out. If they don't like it, then let them quit or finish wiping out their own people with their body bombs and car bombs. I for one do not ever want to live that way, and if we lose we will be living that way in this country. We will show them just what cowards we have over here.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61150Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:46:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61150Jim Arnold, Memphis, TNVietnam and Iraq have at least two things in common--we should have never taken military action in either country. That is the only valid comparison that can be made. We thought we could win in Vietnam with our military superiority. We lost because our military superiority was a slow-moving leviathan that was entire predictable, and thus, easily manipulated by our adversaries. It's the same situation in Iraq, with the exception of the warring religious factions slaughtering each other. But the over-riding reality is that wars based on lies and deception almost always lose traction because leaders are always changing their reasons why they went to war. And the public that has to pay for those wars with hard-earned tax dollars and the growing realization that they were duped, will be the ultimately deciders on Iraq. The bottom line with Iraq is that this administration lied about its reasons for going to war. I think they should be held to account for this deception, which I view as traiterous and unpatriotic behavior. Lt. Francona, I salute your devotion to duty and commitment to your fellow soldiers. I would ask you to step past following orders and step into questioning orders that don't ring true. If you can avoid dying for your country in a war that was based on lies, isn't that duty to country as well, not to mention your family? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61151Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:47:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61151GordyoThe junior officer obviously thinks that the military is somehow above Congress and the people, and that the military 'missions' should not be allowed to be discussed by either, because non-military people just don't understand. I understand fine. I understand that the military is being used by Bush to fight a stupid war based on Bush's lies and mis-catagorizations of the circumstances. I understand that the military knows only fighting, and that they do not want to be 'hampered' by civilian control or oversight. I understand the military has special laws, special 'justice', special 'rights' that do not apply in the real world. Francona is a military mouthpiece, and part of the same military that lied to us about Pat Tillman, that lied to us about rapes and murders by US soldiers, and the military that helps 'rendition' foreign nationals. I don't believe you, Colonel, nor your counterparts. You and your ilk have lied far too many times to be considered either honest or trustworthy. Your actions are only going to make more deaths. Your actions will not bring 'peace'. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61152Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:48:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61152Charles Few, Muncie, INNixon proposed to rest and train the troops? I never heard that. BTW, who's the enemy in Iraq? What are the winning conditions? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61160Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:51:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61160Douglas P, Charlotte NCMurtha is not in favor of supplying our troops with what they need. He is in favor of removing our troops. Look what happened in Vietnam and North Korea, we did what Murtha wants to do. We pulled out of these places and now they too are threatning with bombings and Nuclear threats. Got a suggestion for you Democrats, listen to what your own politicians are saying, really think about them and put them in other situations. What do you think we should have done at D-Day huh. It was a significant step to win the war, however it did cost lives. Germany is now allies with us and has not bothered us, similar to Japan, Italy, and go back to the revolution and England. What battle strategies did we use their, the ones that made our country the strongest, and the ones that didn't admit defeat. Murtha wants to admit defeat. There are more lives taken by murderers every year than the total amount lost in both wars. Check the facts that your Liberal buddies are giving you because most of them are wrong.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61167Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:52:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61167Ed PastorWar? Does anyone here know what the Geneva convention rules say about an enemy combatant who resorts to walking the streets with the citizenry and then attacks while wearing street clothes?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61171Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:54:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61171Alan Roblee, Flat Rock, NCInteresting observations. Unfortunately, they do not take into account that Vietnam, like Iraq, was a place that American military personnel did not belong. Two wars fought for nothing. Two wars where thousands died and nothing accomplished. If the Neocons had sense, they would be hammering Bush on why he did not attack the countries where the 9/11 hijackers came from or were trained-Somalia, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia. Instead, he directed the might of this country in an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation (how truly un-American) and a half-hearted campaign in Afghanistan. It is time for the truth to be told (Bush lied to this nation and the world to involve us in his personal vendetta) and for the President and his administration to accept the full blame and consequences for their actions. By the way, Prince Harry is deploying to Iraq. Where are the Bush daughters? So much for investiture on behalf of the Bush family!! http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61173Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:54:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61173Ay Jay, TxWhy does everyone still debate whether or not we should have gone to war still? That is a useless argument until the next war comes up. The debate is what we should do about the one we are already in today. Walk away and hope it doesn't bite us in the azz, or do something about it since we are already there? The left is so focused on their political benefits of failure in this war it makes me want to vomit. It sure seems like they have more and more incentive for higher American casualties to achieve their political ends more dramatically. There, I spoke the ugly unspeakable truth that many people are thinking but get cowed into not saying by vicious criticism, but that's the way it appears to me. They put my friends and brothers over there in danger every day by encouraging our enemy, and they're not helping them at all by dragging the resistance out and giving it hope and motivation. Doesn't our enemy even know that if they go under ground, we would leave sooner, and they could rise up again in our wake? I don't think that is what they want. They NEED publicity to recruit, and they NEED the media to show blood on TV, and talk about failure to keep their sources supplying and funding them, and keep their "soldiers" fighting ours. Lincoln was taking terrible criticism in 1863 and 1864 for the Union taking terrible losses in major battles and winning few significant victories. It was not until Meade won a significant victory at Gettysburg, and then Grant aggresively pursued the war that the union had substantial success. Lincoln was mercilessly bashed by both his supporters and opposition, and not coincidentally, his approval level was in the ball park of Bush's, and yet he was able to win against the most dedicated of fighters that the southern states were able to muster by mere perserverence and conviction of cause. Morale is EVERYTHING in war. Helping our enemie's, and crippling ours, helps us not.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61174Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:55:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61174Stu, Saginaw, MiLt. Col. Francona; Can you spell "L-O-S-T C-A-U-S-E?? From the get go, Bush's misbegotten Iraq War has been as much of a lost cause as was our stupid involvement in Vietnam (I can spell). I also spent 8 years on active duty in the '60s. xhttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61175Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:55:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61175Robert, Frederick, MDRead and re-read Lt Col Francona's comments on the lessons learned in Vietnam. It is true that we did bring the NVA to the peace table with our intensive bombing campain in 1972. But that doesn't mean we could have maintained peace or ruled over a peaceful North Vietnam. Had we defeated the north, I'm sure that the American troops in Hanoi would face the same issues we now face in Baghdad. I doubt Col Francona would agree with my comments as it appears we attended different wars together.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61179Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:56:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61179Darrell, Oklahoma City, OKGood article. No-guts Murtha should just push for defunding the war if he wants to end it. His methods of restricting the military into a state of unreadiness is cowardly and will only hurt our men. Murtha should be a stand-up guy and just say what he wants to do instead of cloak his wishes in a "training" requirement.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61185Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:59:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61185M. Covingtonwow, they actually printed the truth w/o the spin. I really wish voters were required to know the issues and maybe served an enlistment tour!!!! but i'm sure that would bring it's own problems. way to go sir, it's nice to hear from a person who has at least one foot in reallity. Maybe I wont be sent to rehab after all for thinking that being a QUEER is wrong and goes against all moral upbringing for thousands of years. Yes, wnd what would we do w/o the media???? well for one, we probobly would have NEVER LOST in the 'nam' or anyplace else. w/o politicains who need votes and media who wants our $$$ we are the most determined nation w/ the strongest people on this planet. If we warmongers were really as bad as alot of people say, then we would be in charge of the whole planet. PlEASE AMERICANS get back your courage and moral values, before there is no more america!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61187Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:59:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61187Steve, Northern New YorkLet's see... If you suport Murtha, you are a librul pacifist hippy. If you support the Escalation, you are a patriot, and you support the troops. Never mind that the Bill mandates that the troops be properly trained and supplied. Having proper armor must be librul claptrap. Requiring that troops not be sent right back into the conflict is librul nonsense too. Why I'm sure Rush and Sean would rush right into the conflict. Or at least they say they would. But if you support armor and rest for the troops, you're not a patriot. Check. Up is down, and right is wrong. Check. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61190Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:00:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61190Gregory Bennett, Yorba Linda, CaliforniaIt is unfortunate that our population elects officials that don't have a understanding of at least the last 1/2 century. There is nothing new going on here, but there should be. We need to have a system where intelligent, compasionate, people can come to power and exersize good judgement under the review of of a fair press. In time, a lot of time (like more than you and I will live, dude) this will settle, but don't expect it to happen in 4 years because it has already been going on for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. God Bless America because nobody else does.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61195Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:02:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61195Vinnie, Eureka, CAI love the whole 'fight them there so we don't have to fight them here' argument. Correct me if I'm wrong - was there an al Qaida in Iraq before we got there? There seems to be a huge training ground for terrorists now that we're there - witness the tactics used in Iraq being implemented in Afghanistan (IEDs, etc). WE CREATED A TERRORIST COLLEGE BY ENGAGING IN AN UNNECESSARY AND UNJUST BASED ON LIES!!! And please stop including Iraq and 9/11 in the same stream of reasoning for the Iraq war. They belong together like fish and bicycles, and you just sound like a uneducated person who spouts Bill O'Rielly's rants. Big shout out to William McDonough of Hauppauge, NY. Way to go, and thanks from a ex-pat New Yorker who had to watch on TV as his beloved city got attacked.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61197Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:03:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61197Matthew Huntley, Stockton, CAThe correctness/legality/conduct of the conflict in Iraq to this point is irrelevant here. Let's live in the NOW. We have troops there now, and it's hard to argue that pulling them out before the job is done will result in anything except a regional catastrophe for the USA. We should have learned that lesson from Vietnam, just as surely as we learned that government interference like Murtha proposes will kill more of our men than it saves. Those are the relevant lessons now. The only people denying that are those who wish to turn this into an argument over the legality of the conflict, or if it was worthwhile to get engaged there in the first place. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61202Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:05:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61202Jeff Kirtz, Staunton, VaAll one has to do to get a picture of what kind of person Murtha is, is to look at what bribes he was involved in during his time in politics. What message do I want to send to my children about this country? Not one where Murtha's name ever has to come up. He is a liar and a thief. He has robbed the American people of our dignity and has shown just what kind of slime he really is. And those of you who can actually stomach this guy are sooo misinformed and blind. Just more political games. Support a guy just because he is a Dumbocrat. How aweful!! You know what kind of ethics he has and what kind of morals he has, and you can still support him? That says it all about you as well. Think about that!! He showed (on tape) that he is capable of bribes as long as he can benefit and he doesn't get caught. Have some backbone and ifg you don't like the war and why we are there just say so. But don't act like Murtha is some great person who will do great things for this country. Not going to happen. Ever!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61204Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:06:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61204Diane Strano, Secane, PAI could see this a mile away. First the right wingers tried to rewrite history by claiming that the media and the congress were responsible for losing Vietnam, now they use the same excuse for Iraq. For the record, we lost Vietnam because the people we were sent to defend didn't want us there. You can see by the number of regime changes in South Vietnam that the people also thought that the government they were supposed to be fighting for was corrupt. So now we have a bunch of chickenhawks running around trying to change the lessons long ago learned from Vietnam to something more friendly to their inexperienced idiology. The result is another Vietnam, with all the same dynamics and problems we encountered 35 years ago. Well done chickenhawks!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61209Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:10:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61209Dave, VirginiaHow's about the fact that our presence in Iraq makes us MORE vunerable to domestic attacks. Improve domestic security first. If we can not cover our own butts, how are we supposed to help anyone else?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61214Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:11:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61214Doug Hall, Los Angeles, CAWell said. This war isn't worth prosecution with U.S. monies and lives. That's the mistake. Tying the hands of Bush is a valiant and patriotic effort for the good of America.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61217Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:12:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61217kd, phoenix AZI just love all these arguments about whether Iraq had anything to do with 911. What makes you think this war is just about 911??? How you conveniently forget all the events leading up to 911, you have your heads tucked oh so nicely down in the sand maybe you'll wake up when some terrorist tapes a bomb to your backside.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61220Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:14:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61220Richard Zipper, Crofton, MDThe lack of allied support is a reflection of the lack of wisdom of our efforts in Iraq. Unfortunately Bush and Cheney will be able to continue their folly because too many Republican Senators consider themselves Republicans first and Senators second. Thank goodness we finally have a Congress which will hold Bush accountable and hold debates and hearings.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61363Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:08:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61363Tom Nguyen, San Rafael, CaliforniaI see Mr. Murtha and many politicians of both parties in the U.S. Congress are so demagogic in a bad sense. They want to please their constituents so much so that they do everything to keep their seats no matter what. Politicians, especially Mr. Murtha, should know how far they can do to dictate the war in Iraq. The U.S. Congress already made a huge mistake in Vietnam War when they interfered to manage the war the way that allowed the U.S. to betray South Vietnam that created grave consequences for the people of Vietnam. Who authorized Bush to start the War in Iraq? We are so concerned about the loss of lives of more than 3100 soldiers and many more. What's about many thousands Iraqi lives lost every week? Are they human beings like Americans lives? If we are brave of ourselves, we should be courageous to fight the war to the end no matter what. We have to fight for final victory!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61369Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:09:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61369Mike O Jacksonville, Fl.We must as a nation, decide that if we are engaged in a conflict that there must be only one outcome. Victory! As long as we can be manipulated by our enemies by deviding our political leaders we will be tested every time. When we finally figure this out and our enemies learn that we will not be manipulated that there is only going to be one painfull outcome they will continue. once engaged we must remain resolute. This could also mean that we will not commit troops so quickly if we know that no matter how long it takes (even decades) we will not quit then we might be engaged in fewer conflicts toohttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61370Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:09:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61370Paul Rajniak, Roy, UtahYes we are stuck in Iraq through tremendous stupidity and miscalculations of Rumsfeld and a President who's ego is out of control and needs professional counselling. The right wingers keep harping that the left has no plan. Well here is a strategy to ponder. Call for a truce and cease fire among the warring Iraqi factions. If the faction agree to a truce and stopp fighting, then those who keep on will be identified as the outside insurgents that can become the targets. Secondly, bring the heads of the factions to the table, no matter who they are. Explain to them that the U.S. troops are going to pull back to the borders to prohibit outside influences from entering the country. Next, tell the factions that they have two choices: 1) they can sit at the table and negotiate and come up with a plan on how to govern their country with no more bloodshed, 2) they can continue to fight and kill each other off while the U.S. will stand at the borders and watch them obliviate themselves. But make it clear, we will not lose anymore americans lives while they continue to just kill each other and do nothing to work toward establishing their own country. If they do not work to that end.....we will leave. And that is how you end it in the correct fashion. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61372Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:09:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61372Art Resnik, Ft. Lauderdale, FLCongressman Murtha is not micro-managing the war. The military has already one hand tied behind its back with all the restrictions placed upon them.. Just like you stated in your article: let loose the U.S. Air Force for just 48 hours over Anbar Province. Let them use the same type of bombing that was used in WWII and see how long the enemy will hold-out. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61375Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:10:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61375Charlie Kennedy, Aldie, VAI don’t necessarily agree with everything the Honorable John Murtha has said and in fact many times I disagree with his positions but whether Lt Col (Ret) Francona likes it or not, we live in a country where there is civilian control of the military. Here are some excerpts from a DoD web page concerning civilian control of the military: ‘Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution states that Congress shall have the power "to raise and support Armies …" and "to provide and maintain a Navy." Article II, Section 2 states, "The President shall be the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual Service of the United States." Congress has the power to declare war and to make the rules for governing the military. Military members swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States." One of the more successful aspects of that document is civilian control of the military. The president and Congress had to work together to use the military.’ So, when the Honorable John Murtha, executes his constitutionally given power to be involved in civilian control of the military, Lt Col (Ret) Francona calls it “interference.” As a retired military officer, Lt Col (Ret) Francona should show greater respect and refer to a member of congress by their proper title. Additionally, Lt Col (Ret) Francona should exercise greater care in labeling others’ actions. I normally switch channels whenever I see Lt Col (Ret) Francona reporting because I think his credibility is low and this article just reinforces my poor view of him and his analysis capabilities. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61381Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:12:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61381Lone American VoiceInstead of looking at Vietnam, we should look to the lessons learned (and forgotten) from World War II. The Second World War was the bloodies and most destructive war the planet has ever seen, and could have been prevented if the allies had not let Hitler get away with terrorizing all those European countries. A preemptive attack on Nazi Germany in 1939 would have actually SAVED millions upon millions of lives! By us having the passifist attitude back then, that many liberals have today, we emboldened the Nazis and enabled them to get more powerful. Eventually, we had no choice but to fight the Nazis, but by the time we did, they were so powerful, that millions of people died, and we almost lost the war on many occaisions! Our enemy today is no different than the Nazis of the 1940's! Look at their rhetoric... look at how brainwashed they are... look at their unrelenting desire to inflict death and destruction on anyone who is not them! This is not a game - this is for real! Just as years of diplomacy against Hitler only made him stronger, trying to hide our heads in the sand and bank on diplomacy against our current enemies will only make them stronger, and prove to be just as unsuccessful. We need to wake up and smell the coffee. Pacifism means that we WILL be attacked again, it will not a matter of if... but a matter of when. We can either fight them now, on their homeland, or fight a much stronger enemy later on ours! http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61385Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:12:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61385Don D. Hamilton, ohioOur forces are being depleted. Our epuipment, is stacking up at repair depots. How long can we send the same forces. If our politicians want to continue the war. Let each of them send a child, or spouse. Let them open their purses, for the weapons of war. Then, Congressman Murtha's approach won't be needed. As for a support element like airpower winning a war. Who are you trying to kid. Thats like saying turning on the lights kills cockroachs. It only makes them skatter. You gotta put boots on the ground to kill them. And, we need NEW boots!!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61392Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:14:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61392jjn, Albany, NY...but what if the troop surge works? Also, what if the US used WWII as its model and not Vietnam? Besides after the Japanese attacked, America responded by invading Africa, if I remember my history books correctly. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61524Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:57:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61524Norm, PhillyThe administration and the military were given four years to prosecute this war and they have failed miserably. I for one am sick of paying for their failures. Congress is beginning to put restrictions on troop levels as it pertains to training. If the administration is serious about "winning", whatever that may be, they will adhere to the guidelines. And it shocks me that in 2007 people still play the treason card. If we are not allowed free speech or freedom of the press, then what are our troops fighting for? Security? We can achieve that by locking the population up in underground bunkers. Then we can all live free never speaking in our lead-lined prisons.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61536Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:01:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61536JC, Los Angeles, CALt. Colonel Francona, It is painfully clear that you, despite the years of training to gain your Lt. Colonelcy, have neglected to study military history for the Middle East region. As a retired officer and one who does not support the actions of the civilian administration that brought this whole debacle to fruition, I am offended by the "lockstep" mentality that the officer corps has developed in regard to Iraq. If anyone studies the Middle East region in more than a cursory way, they come to understand the nature of the "conflict." None of the "reasons" this President and his Administration have presented are legitimate reasons to squander our blood and treasure. In point of fact all of those reasons have been proven falsehoods. I served at the pleasure of 4 Presidents with few regrets. I will NEVER serve this President, he neither earned my respect nor my confidence. Colonel Murtha CLEARLY understands the lessons of Vietnam, you sir, do not.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61540Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:01:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61540Susan Webster Schultz, Kaneohe, HawaiiYes, Vietnam was such a disaster that they are now ouyr prime trading partners in Asia! There IS no way to "finish a job" that started from a lie and never had any real purpose. This is not a story that will have a happy ending any way we do it. So getting out now is the best option of many poor ones. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61543Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:02:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61543MSgt USMC retDisgruntled Sailor - exactly which rate or MOS in the Navy is it that requires ground combat training????http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61545Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:02:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61545AT70Politicians fight for votes today just like they did during the Vietnam era. Unfortuntely most do not care about how many people die while they do this. No service member now or during Vietnam made the decision to start a war. This is done by our POLITICIANS.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61549Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:03:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61549AT70Politicians fight for votes today just like they did during the Vietnam era. Unfortuntely most do not care about how many people die while they do this. No service member now or during Vietnam made the decision to start a war. This is done by our POLITICIANS.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61551Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:04:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61551Orin HollanderPeople who say that the lesson of Vietnam is that we didn't commit fully have learned nothing and forgotten nothing. There are lots of lessons about Vietnam, but Phil Ochs summed it up best in his ballad "White Boots Marching." The best lesson to have learned is that we need to be extremely skeptical when our leaders tell us we need to fight this or that war. In both Vietnam and now in Iraq we have been lied to. Another lesson is that when you invade another country that has done you no harm you had better be prepared to occupy them forever, and that should give us pause.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61553Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:04:24 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61553Jacqueline Brown"Support the Troops" is just code word for "Support the President" or "Support the Republican Politicians". The President and his "supporters" use the American military as human shields. They use the American military forces as their personal guards, to smear and defame anyone who don't agree with their policies or have a different strategy. They accuse detractors like Rep. Murtha of not "Supporting the Troops". Saddam Hussein called his army the "Republican Guards." I think the President and his sycophants believe that is exactly what the American Military is, their "Republican Guards."http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61565Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:07:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61565Don Sebo Phoenix, ArizonaI spent 4 years in the regular Navy during Vietnam and 4 years in the Army Reserve combat engineers while in college. My son is currently serving with the marines in Fallujah. Americans I believe are willing to fight for a good cause and if they feel that ultimately it will protect our country. We have dethroned a ruthless dictator and at that point, we did indeed win the war and we should have collected our guns, tanks and trucks and went home. Wehave no business trying to bring social order to a country that isn't willing to work for it themselves. Every young man and women serving in Iraq is an attractive target for terrorists, insurgents and others. Bush still doesn't have an endgame and he's willing to sacrifice the lives of our military until he figures it out.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61569Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:08:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61569Don D. Hamilton, ohioto MA of atlanta. If you truly are a historian. Name a foriegn power who has been able to stay in that region long term. They have always fought by sects, and used terror to impose rule. The isrealites killed women and children by beheading. They left no one alive at Jericho. This war does nothing to stop terror. Since we have removed what stability the iraqi people had. We should help them restore order. But to believe this war, was the proper response to 911, is truly naive. semper fihttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61577Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:11:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61577James M., Lubbock, TXPut your money where your mouth is and DEMAND the President ask Congress to reinstate the draft, and not the Vietnam-type draft the VAST majority of the scum in Washington, Democrat and Republican, who got us into this mess managed to avoid. If everyone has to suffer equally, wars will not be started in such cavalier fashion by those who never have to worry about themselves or their children having to bleed. We need 500,000 ground forces to finish this mess. You brainwashed zombies haven't earned the right to sing "God Bless America" and put your $3.00 made in China "Support our Troops" stickers on your SUV's unless you're willing to send YOUR CHILDREN rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, to end this mess with OVERWHELMING force. If we don't, this is going to escalate beyond anyone's control shortly. So sorry, but this is the only way out now. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61578Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:11:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61578Dan E, Sacramento CAOkay so having read through all these responses from both sides of the fence I have a question. How can we possibly *win* a war where there is no clear definition on what a *win* actually is? Is there some magical measuring stick to place against the stack of caskets on either side of the conflict? Initially we went in to defeat the Iraqi army and remove Saddam from power. Well, we did that already, could that be considered a win? The series of missteps that has continued since then has gotten us to a point where there actually is no clear mission for our troops to even attempt. I have no question that given the proper mission and resources that our brave troops would be triumphant, but to leave them sitting in the middle of a civil war while we try to figure out what it is we want them to do is both irresponsible and reprehensible. I see no shame in wanting to ensure that our troops get the best training and equipment in the world, regardless of political motivation behind it. Maybe if someone could come up with an actual definition of what *winning* this war would entail, more of us might be able to even consider supporting that effort. Until then bring our troops home for some well deserved rest.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61580Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:12:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61580KB PhoenixI wonder where Mr Perkins argument was when the Clinton machine cut defense spending in half, reduced the authorized end strength of troops and increased our operational tempo, all at the same time?? It is absolutely ludicrous to imply the Murtha's motive is the well being of troops. It is simply the only method he has to insert his warped view of how troops should be deployed. I'm not saying the adminstration has done any better but Murtha's approach is dangerous and will cause even more loss of life.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61582Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:12:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61582Bob, PensacolaI'm an Air Force Veteran, Vietnam War and America has no right to chemically bomb a defenseless country. Some idiot said if you don't love America, leave it. I love America, I just hate racist, illiterate thugs who thingk they can chemically bomb anybody on the planet to steal their oil. These Republican hicks don't give a flying, dead, Fallujah baby who they bomb for Jesus. We're murdering innocent people every day and shooting the Sunni and Shia residents right between the eyes but if you're a burr-cut moron from the Moron Belt where I live, you couldn't care less. You can't kill them all Redneck. You're dumber than a truckload of cantaloupes and because of it we're chemically bombing a country who never fired a bullet at us to steal their oil. They're trying to make the oil deal this week. Maybe you get a prize, like the smoldering torso of a dead Iraqi girl some Redneck bombed for Jesus. Murdering Morons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61583Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:12:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61583Vaidya ManeeshThe point is people never learn from History. Israelis have been telling not to get involved in Iraq for long as a lesson of 1982 Lebanon war. US didn't listen. Then Israel made same mistake. Looks like Americans have to realise the Hi-tech and powerful weapons don't bring democracy to any region or make you superior. Stop meddling other countries affairs and support democracies, not topple them. Learn why US allies turn against US after 20-25 years. Mr. Francona brought good point of congress interventions in military affairs. But sometime its needed because if they don't military Top brass will go wild. I learned how to get your car out of sand in Middle east from Arab driver and became expert. This mess in Iraq is similar get their help to get out of it. You screwed it up now you just can't leave like Mr. Murtha says. What a waste of money and brave soldiers. Now the eyes have dried, no more tears left.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61584Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:12:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61584P T Olson The people and government of Iraq have been given a golden opportunity to have a democratic country it is time for them to take over, if they really want it they don't know anything now but dictatorship and occupation. I think we had all the good intentions of victory and peace the administration thought after the fall Saddam's forces that the populace would greet us like it was the liberation of Paris. They want the buses to run, to work, to shop, to have electricity all the things they had when Saddam was in power now they have terrorists militias foreign jihadists the U.S. military and British forces along with many other factions including each other killing each other. Time to get out and see it break into three seperate countries. Its a false united Iraq in the first place the Kurds seem to have it figured out. Its now a power struggle between the Sunni and Shites and it has been going on for ever. We are wasting our childrens blood and our countrie treasure on a unwinable war. If you want to win a war go in with more than enough troops to do the job. It was pointed out early on and it is still true.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61589Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:15:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61589Pat Costa, Gaston OrThe war in Iraq has, from the manufacturing of the intelligence prior to the invasion, to the firing of military leaders who said the planned troup levels weren't enough, to the constantly changing justification for our presence in Iraq been nothing but interference from Washington. Keep your arguments logical, your readers aren't idiots. Murtha knows better than most what it is like to be a combat soldier, I applaud his efforts to provide some solace and prtection for the troops. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61594Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:16:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61594Santa Barbara, CAOf all the comments I've read regarding the debacle in Iraq, it is interesting to note the lack of mental clarity and historical understanding of those few who still support this wasteful and unnecessary military foray. Someone even ranted about the connection between Iraq and 9-11; have they been under a rock? Are there really people out there who still believe that manufactured intelligence used by the Bush administration to justify the invasion of Iraq. So long as our citizens choose to remain ignorant and uninformed we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes again and again. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61596Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:17:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61596Robert, Sacramento, CAThe United States must learn that when we send the military to fight a war they must be allowed to use all weapons at their disposal. You cannot fight a war by concensus or by a vote of Congress or political polls. I am a Vietnam veteran and retired from the U.S. Army after 20 yrs. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61608Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:20:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61608Mike, Issaquah, WAI don't agree with Murtha, but he has a right to his opinion. The only thing that bothers me is the lack for forthrightness. If he believes we should not be in Iraq, I would like to see a resolution to withdraw, rather than veiled resolutions to do this or that to try to make it harder for the administration to stay. The opposition to the troup surge is the same kind of thing. Do people honestly think the strategy of sending in more troops will decrease the chance of success, or do they want to withdraw altogether? Opposing the troop surge seems silly by itself. The complaint of my ex-military friends that oppose the war has been that we haven't deployed enough troops to insure security. We reduced troops by around 20000 in the last year, so the increase is a wash. There has been many calls for the administration to change tactics, and the surge is a change. However, it sounds like the only change they want is to withdraw. That is fine as an opinion, but I would like to hear that rather than hyperboly. I would really just like to see honesty from our representatives and if they want to withdraw, craft a resolution to withdraw. It might have no real constitutional force, but at least the message would be clear. Then, if they're going to craft bills and riders to reduce funds and place other restrictions, they should clearly say they are doing it to force a withdrawal rather than trying to craft bills that sound innocuous and hide the real intention. I just get tired of the games people like Murtha play. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61610Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:21:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61610rita FBetween the time that the Johnson administration knew that we could not win the war, and the time that the back door negotiations began to extracate ourselves from Viet Nam, over 25,000 more young men died. We know we are getting out of Iraq, it is only a matter of deciding what it will look like. How many more young men and women must die before we get to a place we already know we are headed for. Mr. Murtha is trying to avoid this happening again.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61614Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:22:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61614Peter H., Issaquah, Wash.Would our PC politicians have made the decisions to invade Normandy on D day knowing the costs there or make any decision to put troops in harms way knowing thier voters would hold them responsible for the deaths of American soldiers? Washington politics will never win a war which was the lesson of Vietnam. Lt. Francona is right on. He is Pharo ordering the Hebrews to gather thier own straw and maintain thier quota's. He is setting them up to fail. The intelligent people of this country know who to blame. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61625Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:28:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61625C A, Tuscaloosa, AlabamaOpinions, Opinions. You are right, no you are wrong. No, he is right, no he is wrong. But I thought they were wrong. Are they right or are they wrong? We are, and our opinions are, a reflection of our own social upbringing and experiences. Who cares who is right or wrong. Is anyone willing to continue to see our young men and women in uniform bleed and die and suffer in this policing action? Do we send troops to other parts of the world where there are tyrants who murder large numbers of people. What about Africa, North Korea, on and on and on....where does it end? There are those in uniform who are there to fight and die for their country, but most are there to stay alive and to watch each other's backs until they can come home. Get them out of there. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61627Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:28:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61627Jane RogersIt is difficult to believe that there are so many stupid Americans who fail to see that those fighting against democracy in Iraq are NOT different from those who attacked us on 9-11. These people are united in one goal: defeat & kill Americans. They say it frequently and openly in Islamic hard-line journalism sites and in noisy public demonstrations. They plot & attempt to execute these plots with bombs in places like England, Spain, Canada & other Western countries. Yet Murtha and others, fail to get the message. Incredible. Radical Islamists are devoted to the destruction of "the West", as they call it, & these are all of the same ilk. I've dealt with them in working relationships both here & abroad for years, so please don't tell me that the war in Iraq has nothing to do with al-quaeda. Wake up America! Thank God for Bush.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61636Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:32:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61636Don D. Hamilton, Ohioto compare this war to WWII, has little merit. Our current enemy is more like street thugs in a major city. Maybe you're all right. We should carpet bomb Los Angeles. To stop the gang violence. We haven't stopped violence in our own cities. All that we can do is secure enough area to give iraqi security forces some hope. Then establish a base in the north. We had previously promised our support to them. There we can help the iraqi security forces, with air, fire, and logistical support. This would accomplish the most realistic goals. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61643Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:35:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61643Ken L VA9-11. It's not over. They will not give up but I'm afraid we already have. How soon we forget.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61652Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:40:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61652Russ PelletierMr. Francona, A member of the House of Lords in London once said that he didn't think that his country could sustain their own troops so far from the mother country, while trying to defeat a radical, rebelious army that doesn't play by the rules of conventional warfare. He said this over 225 years ago, during the American Revolution. It was true then, it was true in Vietnam, and it is true in Iraq. The second ammendment of the Constitution guarantees Americans the right to bear arms, in order to maintain a militia. (go ahead and google it, if you don't remember) If, we need a militia in Iraq, should then every member of the NRA be in Iraq? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61657Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:41:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61657Allen Bayley, Mountaintop, Pa.Naivete' is rampant. Everyone keeps quoting the election and opinion polls which say the majority of Americans want us to get out of the war. Another poll says that 68% of Americans want us to win the war! If what we were doing wasn't working then how can you win the war by leaving.We must change tactics which is what the 'surge' entails.This clamor over the war would not have occured nor the election distorted if the 'left-leaning news media didn't harp on it EVERY day for the past 3 years. When you accuse them of wanting us to lose the war they deny it but what leaving now accomplish except losing? I never saw so many +&@# illogic people. The Vietnam War was in fact lost for the same reason: anti-war protestors (think jane Fonda) and a constant push by the media. Notice how much negativity was NOT present when the News media was imbedded with the military. Those reporters got all the 'ink' and this bothered the pseudo soldiers in the newsroom behind the desks. These Congressme (and women) are cowzards and traitors. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61658Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:42:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61658Gary Schear, Bozeman MontanaThe Brits just opted out. But I think the 10 Boy Scouts from the Republic of Lapland are staying the course with George. They are working on their "Making Democracy by rubbing two Iraqis together" Merit badges. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61667Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:44:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61667Moderate, Santa Clarita , CaliforniaThe Soviet experience in Afghanistan may be what our foray into Iraq is eventually compared to. It is true that like Vietnam we could win every major battle of the war and still end up "losing" the war. It all depends on how you define losing and winning. Winning could be defined as having taken over the 2nd largest oil reserves in the Middle East for the relatively low cost of 3,000 solidiers and 500 billion dollars while the oil that keeps the world economy running continues to flow. We are also maintaining an American troop presence on the ground in the Middle East that arguably has been instrumental in preventing any terrorist attacks on the U.S. mainland(or we take Mecca). Political failure could be defined by the losing of the House and Senate by the party in power. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61677Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:48:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61677John Bell, Sioux City, IowaThe only way that we can achieve our strategic goals in Iraq is to support a religious group that will be willing to agree to our interests in exchange for their control of the country. The Islamic mindset is the factor that regrettably makes this the most viable option for the U.S. to take without losing its influence in the region. Most Iraqis are fundamentalist Muslims. As a fundamentalist in the Islamic faith a Muslim must adhere to the laws and edicts of Sharia law. Sharia law is a body of laws derived from the Qur'an. Fundamentalist believe the laws implemented under Sharia must be devised and approved by religious leaders of their particular sect. Since most Iraqi's have this type of mindset, they will never accept a democratically elected government. A democracy is counter to their ideas of theocratic control. Consequently our efforts to establish a democracy in Iraq will be fruitless. It is best that the U.S. begin pulling out of Iraq.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61685Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:51:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61685not stupid, seattle areaIf you think Iraq was a democracy, I have some bad news for you...http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61713Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:01:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61713Jeff Wells, Springfield, MOThis article generated a wealth of passionate, divergent comments. That's a clue that simple-minded paradigms aren't going to generate simple solutions. "We'd win if the liberals would just stop whining," or "the knuckle-dragging conservatives just want to kill and torture." I think we use labels and lump enemies together when we get frustrated that we're not as smart as we thought. At least we've a commander in place now (Patreaus) who is probably wise enough to fully grasp the situation. I know I can't solve this mess. I think I also recognize when others are wrong. I don't think we're going to fail because I'm not enthusiastic enough. Sometimes political goals are fuzzy and missions are ill-conceived. Sometimes resources aren't properly tasked to guarantee success. Sometimes, leaders at all echelons make mistakes. What should I do if I suspect that is the case? What should I do if I believe our strategy is based on hope--that Iraqis beyond our control will somehow stabilize the region. What if I believe as General Sullivan titled his book, "Hope is not a method"? I think the answer is not to look for simplicity or scapegoats. I think the answer is not to label those who disagree with me as "less American."http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61741Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:13:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61741Monte MartinAs a Vietnam veteran myself, the lesson I learned is that you don't throw good after bad, and that America has an obligation not to let our soldiers die for a lie.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61765Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:36:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61765John, Houston, TXI believe Murtha knows exactly what he is doing - to cripple our efforts against an enemy whose mission is to kill as many Americans as they can, whether on Iraqi soil, here in the U.S, and any place else there are Americans. Mr. Murtha, is Al Queda contributing to your re-election campaign? Do you even consider yourself an American? My three oldest sons have served at least one tour in the U.S. Army. My oldest son has decided to make the U.S. Army a career and he has been twice deployed to Iraq. I am proud of my three oldest sons for wanting to serve thier country. For Mr. Murtha and all the other anti-war, anti-American liberal democrats and yes, even some Republicans, I have nothing but contempt for those spineless, gutless politicians whose only concern is getting their sorry butts re-elected. Let the military do what needs to be done. For that is the ONLY way we WILL get the troops home. Had these spineless liberals been in charge during WWII, we'd all be speaking German. Had these spineless liberals not forced the first President Bush to halt the first Gulf war early we would NOT be having this discussion now. I would rather not be sending our sons and daughters to fight in a forign country. But as we are, I WANT our sons and daughters to be WELL TRAINED and WELL ARMED so they complete the mission. Not hamstrunged as Murtha wants so our sons and daughters can't even protect themselves against an enemy that relishes murdering our troops in addition to murdering THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN! There are a lot of Iraqis who do want us there. My son who has been there twice has met many Iraqis who has personally thanked him for being there. I am proud of ALL of our Sons and daughters who are serving in the United States Military. I am proud to be an American. Let the military do what needs to be done so we CAN end this war.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61769Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:38:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61769Dr. Daniel A. McClure, Ch (Col), US Army retiredFunny how so many decry the loss of American lives yet say nothing about the carnage or cars and crime in this land. Funny how quickly folks forget we were attacked. Funny how those with little knowledge or experience of the military can make such judgments. Funny how those priveleges are paid for by the soldier and not the politician or average civilians. Funny or is it tragic? Have fun with your diatribes folks this is America!!!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61777Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:47:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61777Ay Jay, TXAnd FYI, they're American soldiers, not babies. They despise being treated with the passive contempt and faux-sympathy like they are helpless little children by large portions of the American public. At least give them their dignity, lefties.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61786Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:56:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61786ken, holland paAre we still in Iraq? i thought it was mission accomplished. Surely, these dead enders must be in their last throws. oh, wait A minute, that's not the truth. or is it? I'll tell you what, there are handful of you that are completely missing the point. If it wasn't for a handful of people who disagreed with British Rule, we would still be a colony. Just following what president cheney and the cleaning lady george bush, would embarrass our fore-fathers. so come on Mac from Texas (and the rest of you). Put down the Kool-Aid and start trying to live the whole point of our democracy and what it really stands for.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61790Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:01:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61790Francesco Biancaniello Alamogordo, NMMr. Francona: how can you even compare Vietnam to Iraq? You Talked about LinebackerII, Just had rolling Thunder to tathalso. Do you need to be reminded that there was a North Vietnam that we were fighting. Now tell me who we are fighting in Iraq? By your suggestion we need to just bomb all of Iraq. If that is what you want then Get the troops home and start your bombing campaign.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61807Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:10:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61807JKD, PensacolaThe neocons premise that we "shouldn't get out till the job is done" is folly. How do we know when the job is done? Hell, I'm not even sure who we are at war with! Is it Iraq? Is it terrorism? If the war is with terrorism then, by God, let's attack Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt and Dubai and the Phillipines and Spain and Japan and Wisconsin...let's nuke 'em all! Because if we don't fight 'em there then we're gonna be fighting 'em here, just like we did with Viet Nam. I was just a young thing when the war with Wisconsin happened, but I remember it clearly. Cheese flying everywhere! But I digress...neocons,we were lied to about the justification for this war, and the war itself has been bungled from its onset. Why should we trust the liars and bunglers again and again? It's time to get out...http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61846Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:43:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61846George, Johnstown, PA (Murtha's District)I first hand have seen what Mr. Murtha does for his district. I have also served a tour in Iraq, My brother-in-law is on his second one. We are both soldiers simply doing our duty. With all of this bickering does anyone really have a feel for the Soldiers, Marines etc. I guess we will simply feel like my Father (Vietnam Veteran) in the end. We will raise our children having the notion that doing our duty was some sort of discrace. Please would everyone just stop all the arguing (both sides) and think about the effect that this will have on this great nation in the years to come.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61850Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:47:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61850Matt, Johnstown, PA (Murtha's District)I wish that this effort would have been displayed when Mr. Murtha watched the steel industry in Johnstown die over the last 30 years. When was the last time anyone cared about jobs leaving America.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61871Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:03:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61871Rob, La Vern, CAIf anyone were to be open minded and "honest", that means without political prejudice, they would admit that we are in an illegal war, started by the money grabbers, oil etc., that bought Bush the whitehouse. Yes, he had a vendeta but does not have the mental capacity to do much of anything positive or negative. What is sad is that thousands of young American's and thousands of innocent Iraq's have died because of greed. The people in the middle east will have their religious wars long after we are gone as they have for thousands of years. The only thing our goverment has accomplished with their action is heighten the hatred towards the United States which is now recognized as an imperialistic nation. The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire tells us what is to follow.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61873Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:05:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61873tl cole botkins ohioThis veteran is with you Colonel Murtha,stop these incompetent morons who have no plan and could care less about our service members.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61874Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:07:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61874Manny Alen, Miami, FLI served two full tours in Viet Nam. The rules of engagement sucked. You are right on target. Let the military run the war and the politicians have no business meddling.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61953Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:24:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61953Jim, Santa CruzWe live in a democratic republic - the military functions at our behest. Those who have served have the right to an opinion, and it's as valid as anyones who did not serve. No one group has a monopoly on virtue and righteousness. Currently a majority of Americans, as measured by polling, are opposed to this war. If congress wishes to discuss the pros and cons of the war openly and investigate its problems and propose limiting it if possible, they are exercising the peoples' will. Comparisons to Viet Nam are valid - comparisons to the sixties are valid - the people don't want another Viet Nam.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#61965Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:26:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:61965RS Tentis Mandan, NDWhat if any war, no matter the justification, is wrong. What if all the wars in human history have been in vain and have been nothing more than a proliferation of a culture of violence. What if America is consumed with a culture of violence. What if our children,including ourselves, have been programmed from an early age to progress the culture of violence to perpetuate the obscene trillions spent on killing other human beings. What if we in our pathetic self serving humility asked God to bless our troops and our country and He spit in our face for ignoring his Commandments. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62009Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:34:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62009Michael Plainsboro, NJWe lost Vietnam because you can't beat an insurgency. Just ask the British(Revolutionary War) and the Soviets(Afghanistan). Blaming Congress because we fought a restricted war? I think the people of Mai Li may have a thing to say about that. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62139Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:59:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62139ponyGT,Ay Jay, Tx , Do you really believe that Democrats want more US Troops to DIE? So, anytime a democrat voices opposition to the war we are Traitors, now when Jack Murtha (a decorated vet) offers his ideas, you think he is actually wanting more troops to die?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62153Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:00:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62153Kevin Neary, Arlington, VAIn other words, the policy of the last 4 years in which Congress has provided no oversight and has done nothing except provide whatever resources the President has sought, has proven so much more successful than Viet Nam. Right! When our Iraq venture fails, as it inevitably will, blame Murtha instead of Bush. Right!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62215Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:08:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62215Bill Higginbottom, Chesterfield, MOWhat gets me is that there are still people out there that buy into the idea that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and Iraq has anything to do with the war on terrorism. Even you leader, W, admitted there was no connection, but still slips the idea into his speeches and people continue to buy into it. And there is this idea that Iraq will follow us back here if we pull out. Preposterous. In Vietnam President Eisenhouer sent advisors into South Vietnam and became involved in their civil war. Disaster and Iraq is the same. Winning? What is winning in Iraq? Those people have been engaged in civil war in one fashion or another since the 16th century. How are we going to end it. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62286Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:17:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62286Bill Higginbottom, Chesterfield, MOJohn, I and all Americans appreciate your sons and their service. God bless them. But, the record needs to straighted out for you. The Liberals were in charge during WWII and George H.W. Bush made the decision alone to halt the Gulf War. The Liberals had nothing to do with his decision.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62685Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:12:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62685john cautillo, irvine , cai am proud to be able to discuss with logic the pro and con of a mission like this one. to those americans who can think, that is worth fighting for and that makes me proud. but for those who rubber stamp a king who speaks lies and makes mistakes with no guilt, that would shame the america i knew. you cant think its ok to kill inocent people in another country and say your proud to be an american. what does that make the rest us feel. do you want us to be animals or the same german mislead people during the fashist hitler rule?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62710Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:26:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62710Ernesto MooreFirst of all 9-11, 9-11, had NOTHING to do with Iraq. Brave young soldiers are dying for GWB lies to this nation. Congress should cut off every dime for the Iraq part of this war. Every household over there has a weapon and killing us is the game that is to real to those that have lost love ones there. I did tours in Nam and I take my hat off Col Murtha and would follow him if he were a platoon leader today.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62712Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:28:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62712Alice,Roanoke Va.I can't believe I read all the thoughts? I was wondering how many were alive during the war in Vietnam.I can remember my uncle came back from Germany ,the stories he would tell.War is Hell.Some one spoke Jesus,made me think of reading where it said, there would be wars and rumors of wars,and these wars must be.I have never found anyone who knew why. I think the Bush girls are at same place Alan is.I hope Britains' Harry never goes,it will cost too many lives.I think the gas that was used is there or other countries ,to nice a weapon to destroy,it worked well when they used it. Dr Daniel I liked your words best.In case anyone cares what I think,Looking at what the Congress and Senate have done in my life time,thirty years as military wife,four sons serving,two grandsons now.If you have retired,enjoy,Let the young do their time.It is a war of their time.Wars should be fought by them,give what they need and our prayers.Pray for all the young dying needless here,Stop the murders of our children, they are our tomorrows,Ask God to stay in the this Beautiful country he gave us. God is Good. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62727Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:46:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62727FrankDig deeper folks. What is actually driving this surge is nothing more than a desparate attempt by Mr. Bush to redeem himself for an illicit and immoral war which he himself started. Unfortunately he doing this with the sweat and blood of our troops. It is common knowledge that Bush is disregarding the wishes of the vast majority of Americans, The findings of the Iraq study group and the opinions of many high ranking military officials. As such, he has become delusional with such fantasies as trying to compare this war with the American Revolution. He is fundamentally out of control and Congress therefore has the moral obligation to reign him in. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62793Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:38:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62793Bob E. Alamogordo, NMThe question is Martha still on this planet, denying the troops the support they need to fight is as stupid as electing w for the second time. As a Vietnam vet we were losing 300 troops a week, this little exercise in stupidity is not as lethal as Vietnam. AS one of the last out, I remember kicking an ARVN's ass so I could take his M-1 carbine because I was out of ammo for my M-16. Is that how we want to remember the sacrifice that these brave young men and women are making. I have a 3 tour Marine nephew still over there, if he is denied the means to protect himself, I personally am going to come looking for Col. Martha. He won't like me face to face. WE'RE there, we might as well finish the job, thats what our troops want. Maybe we should listen to them, their the ones in the line of fire. Get off you soap boxes, these kids know what they are doing. I'm so proud of them I could bust. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62844Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:40:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62844Simeon VillacortaBush and Cheney are idiots. Iraq has nothing to do with 9-11. The United States can not impose it's democratic ideas into a foreign country like Iraq. Majority of the Muslim countries hate America. For as long as there's a single American in their soil, it would only inflame many muslims to rally and kill the infidel. It's a battle cry and a perfect recruiting tool for anti Americans. Many muslim countries would answer the call anytime, anywhere against the US. When will the SOBs wake up? Just don't get it.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62862Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:40:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62862Mark, Houston, TXJohn, typical republican revisionist and Bush apologist. Here's the neo-cons chance to blame this mess on the Democrats. This war is a disaster because of Bush and the republicans. The only hope for our soldiers is to stop this mess. The only people willing to stop it are the democrats. You are personnally responsible for putting your sons in harms way. And for what? Hope you can live with yourself.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62875Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:05:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62875RCole, Heyburn, IDI have listen to the news about all the innocent people being killed in Iraq. Tragicaly this happens in all wars. I have noticed in Iraq it is Iraqs own people who are doing the bomb suicides aimed at their own peole this is what i call tragic. As much as I hate war I am tired of eveyone blaming the President he alone does not set policy. No matter how much I hate this war and any war I WILL STAND BEHIND OUR SOLDIERS. We all sit back in our nice homes while the soldier is out there doing what he is trained and order to do. THAT is his job. The soldier is always in the hot seat not in his nice home. If you all want the war to came home then set on your duffs and complaine untill another 9-11 happens. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62879Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:24:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62879bill perrin,carbondale,il.i suspect that murtha knows one thing for sure about viet nam. the same thing that he knows about iran. our military had no business in either place.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62901Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:53:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62901Tom Whitfield, Dayton, OhioWhat is really scary is the people (many in this blog) that fully believe the Democrats and that so called wonderful American, John Murtha. You call him a "decorated veteran"--what decorations?? All from sitting behind a desk! I served in Vietnam and LtCol Francona hits the nail on the head! What the hell is wrong with America today?? It seems after all the life lost on 9/11 that within two weeks, we wanted to bury our heads in the sand and hope it all goes away! We gave up in Korea & Vietnam after having countless young men and women killed and now we want to do the same in Iraq! I did not necessarily agree with Pres. Bush in taking the war to Iraq, but since we are in fact there, it's upon us (all) to get behind the effort of winning the battle and bringing the troops home! Who in hell will ever believe that we are a strong and true nation if we turn and run again! It makes me sick to know we have people like Pelosi, Murtha, the Clintons, and the rest of the idiot Liberals in places of power!! Couple that with the "Liberal Media" and it doesn't take Einstein to see what path this country in on!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62902Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:53:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62902Jim Phipps, Sulphur, LAMurtha is correct. It is interesting to read the poorly present comments by those here against Murtha who never served in the military, much less in combat. This is a bad war that can wreck our country and continue to kill our youth. For those of you in favor of this war spend a day at Darnall Army Community Hospital when they bring the wounded soldiers in. Talk to the Doc's. I am a combat vet with a Bronze Star. Been there done that.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62939Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:41:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62939Ben Mercadante, Odessa FlWe are a civilian state, by all legal or constitutional manner. J. Murtha is just doing his job as a representative of his District. Even if at one point in time the congress had voted this administration the go ahead, they are now convinced that after four years of mismanagement, poor strategy and mounting evidence of endless corruption...it is time to change course. These kind of decisions are not up to the military, just as the mechanisms that got us involved in the first place. As D. Eisenhower warned the American people of the dangers we faced leading out of WWII as the preeminent super power of the day: "Beware of the military industrial complex" He, certainly of all men from that era knew perfectly well how that group attained power and what they were capable of doing in order to maintain their hold. Another great American spoke of the civil state vs. the military state, but more from a philosophical level that are inherent to the true values of the American way of life: " Of all the enemies of public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies. From these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, debts and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare" James Madison ca. 1795 http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62948Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:48:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62948Gary, Rockport TxMr. Murtha could care less about our soldiers and winning the war in Iraq, just like most of his fellow politicians. Murtha and the other politicians are using the war, and now the soldiers themselves to beat Bush into submission. In return we lose another war, millions of people will be murdered, soldiers and their families will spend the rest of their lives wondering "What was that all about?." It was about the politicians and their own agendas for their own careers. The only good thing that might come out of this is that more americans are starting too really see what our politicians are all about. I am not for Bush and I was not for the war. But something needs to be done. This is not going to just go away now, even if we leave. Its too late for that. But as usual when it comes time for tough decisions, our politicians run the other way, or fight amongst themselves, and call that action.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62951Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:51:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62951John Indianapolis, INOf course Murtha is wrong for wanting to do this, However, The veitnam reasoning is not how I would put this. We don't have to rehash Veietnam to conclude this. For heavens sake Veitnam was stable, Defunding our commitment to aid the south lost it to the north. That and not having a united front. LIKE NOW. The war is a political football and the chicken are going to come home to roost.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62972Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:18:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62972Mark Bogenrieder, Hobbs, NMSeems to me that those prosecuting this war have had a blank check and essentially free reign to do as they see fit for the past 4 years. What has been the result? Now we here adnauseam complaints about being "restricted" in the conduct off the war? Where has this guy been for the last 4 years? More lame excuses and shifting blame - a hallmark of this administration. For those who suggest that we "must fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" - how precisely are they going to "follow us home?" Are they going to get in a boat and follow our battle groups home? Gee - why didn't I think of that?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#62981Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:27:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:62981Chris, Rochester NYGoing to Iraq is like Dad kicking butt when the kids are too wild. Two birds with one stone deal, ala Saddam/Terrorists. Should we have gone in when we did - Nope. Were we eventually going to have to go - Yup. Did Iraq violate all UN sanctions imposed - Yup. Did Iraq have & use WMD in the past - Yup. Would they have done so again - Yup. This was/is a pay-me-now/pay-me-later scenario. It is absurd to assume terrorist orgs would-not/are-not spawning. The surge will have a chance to secure Bagdad then we will pull back & out either way. Then we wait for some European country(s) to get smacked and beg for our help. Then we go back, unless it is France calling, then we hang up the phone… http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63002Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:40:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63002VA Juneau,AlaskaGuess we need more 9/11's to make the American public "peaceniks" realize the Muslims want to bring the conflicts to our homeland.Let a "peacenik" be a human bodyshield for their family and listen for them to beg for peace. I do not agree with war but do agree with personal protection of myself and my family members. The Muslims have repeted they are out for us. Yes Nam went bad but not as a result of the Armed Forces - we fought there with WW2 and Korean Conflict equipment. I know I was there.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63025Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:03:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63025Mike WildtLet's see if I understand this...give the 2nd largest oil reserves in the middle east to what will eventually become another fundamentalist Islamic regime when we withdraw as Murtha intends, or...control it ourselves and not let our enemy fund further attacks on our way of life by the sale of it. Hmmmm...not much of a choice there for me folks. This isn't Vietnam and never will be. Secure Baghdad and this is a done deal. Past administrations failures have led us to this point in our history. Let not history repeat itself again, or we will replace the memory of 9/11 with a new date. The date we wake up to car bombs going off in every major city in the country, all in the name of allah. Peace cannot be negotiated, only won. Win the battle of Baghdad and then bring 'em home. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63073Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:37:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63073OsamaBinHiding, Washington, DCCan you spell "military propaganda bs?" Get a clue buddy.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63378Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:26:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63378Keep me postedOne of the scariest things in the world is to be governed by those who live without any sort of true logic or commonsense, YES COMMON SENSE, because it's not so common anymore. Some of the Bloggers on this page appear to be pandering to one side or another. Why can't we get up and say what's on our minds without being labeled as "emboldening the terrorists". So my desire to have the troops home safe and sound must be sidelined for chea political points! No it won't! We want the troops home NOW because they are being killed on a daily basis by a civil war We want the troops home NOW because the President and VP lied about the basis for this war We want the troops home NOW because there is no clear strategy other than a disguised "stay the course" (of disaster and Vietman) we want the troops home NOW because when they come home they have to face rat infested, rottening dilapidated condition, not being treated like the heroes that they truly are. Mr President, we want no more of YOUR war and your failed strategy, the terrorists will not be "emboldened" if they place our troops in Afghanistan and bring the fight to them where the real battlefront is.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63437Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:47:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63437Jim Murray, Polk City FLLCOL Franconia is 100% correct. As a Vietnam vet, I can still remember the frustrations of trying to do a job with my hands tied by Washington red tape. Memory is indeed very short.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63443Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:49:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63443Jim Murray, Polk City FLLCOL Franconia is 100% correct. As a Vietnam vet, I can still remember the frustrations of trying to do a job with my hands tied by Washington red tape. Memory is indeed very short.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#63726Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:44:01 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:63726edmund bennett, oklahoma city, oklahomaMike Weldt writes, "Peace cannot be negotiated, only won." Gee Mike, it's a good thing Theodore Roosevelt didn't think like that -- he's the only person ever to win both a Medal of Honor, for courage on the battlefield, and a Nobel Prize for Peace, for getting the Russians and the Japanese to set down and make a deal that lasted fifty years. Mike, negoiations and military action can work together -- it's kinda like crossing the street and chewing gum. Sometimes I think you Bombem Back To The Stone Age Guys are essentially the same as the Peacenik Wimps you complain about -- you both love to be victims, and find someone to blame for why your single-dimensional, non-Rooseveltian approaches always fail.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#64445Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:07:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:64445Bill Huey, AtlantaCol. Francona, can you spell h-i-s-t-o-r-y? The bombing campaign that you say Nixon "unleashed" in 1972 (LONG after he was elected on a pledge to end the Vietnam War) was conducted because the SOUTH Vietnamese refused to accept a peace plan that had been negotiated by Kissinger. When the bombing was over, the North returned to the table, and, after some cosmetic changes, the plan was approved. The official spin, of course, was that the North Vietnamese had been forced to capitulate by the bombing. It was all a lie, just like WMD and the nuclear threat posed by Iraq. Moreover, as Chris Matthews has pointed out, we could have gotten the same deal in 1968 that we got in 1972, but chose to waste thousands of lives and maim the futures of hundreds of thousands of Americans because Nixon and Kissinger wanted to look statesmanlike. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#64707Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:20:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:64707Jay McDonaldLCOL Franconia is living in a dream world where Vietnam was a justified and winnable war. History supports neither conclusion. Unfortunately many career military bureaucrats live in an echo chamber called the Pentagon and don't have much experience with the real world. Therefore they come to have some pretty odd beliefs. He also is being disingenuous. The rules of engagement as set by the Pentagon are already binding the hands of our military -- courtesy of Bush. How is this any worse? The current civil war in Iraq is not winnable, never was, never will be. Now it is up to the grownups like Mr. Murtha to shoulder the unpleasant burden of getting us out of there. It's not as fun or as popular as "shock and awe" and "surges" but some one has to take away the candy from the chickenhawks before they give the nation an even bigger belly ache.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#64738Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:31:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:64738JPatIn order to unsure that all citizens in American, elected or civilian, have the right to wage war projects I would implement what Isreal has done with it's draft. "Everyone" That's "Everyone, and all who become citizens must serve in our military in some capacity. This would insure veteranship and proper proceedures for War if, and when, neccessary.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#64746Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:33:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:64746S. LottesLet's not lose sight of the fact that President Bush and the Neocons dragged us into this nasty conflict. They've made mistake after mistake. Lied about the justification for war. Changed the rationale for the justification for war. Caused thousands of deaths and injuries. Smeared the U.S. with the taint of Abu Ghraib etc. Said consistently we were "winning" the war. Said for the better part of 2 years, "stay the course". Misspent nearly a trillion dollars. And now they're at it again just itching to attack Iran. And make no mistake, you don't deploy 3 strike forces and thousands of troops to the Mediterranean and Persian Gulf just for show. So please don't lose sight of these FACTS. All of the heat, all of the blame, all of the focus should be on this reckless Administration. Not those that are trying to extricate us from this mess. S. Lottes - San Dimashttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#64839Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:07:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:64839Jim Brown, Montgomery, AlabamaCol. Murtha, has lost his ever loving mind. Crazy in Congress and supposed to be a loyal American and fought for America. He does not have his ears on and listening to how we Americans who are loyal to America and the the Troops. Troops come first Politics come last. Washington Potiaco's get out of the war and stay out. Victory is our goal and the CHief has more support than you think.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#64964Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:50:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:64964RV, Columbus,OhioWe have allowed ourselves to be "hoodwinked" into believing that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 by a few "myopic" morons and their own "twisted" reality. The GOP and DEM's are both to blame for this nonsense. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65019Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:15:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65019Andrew, Dayton OHCould everyone just SHUT UP about the reasons for starting the war and our involvement? The fact is that it does not matter in the least when talking about prosecuting the war we are now facing, especially the control for Baghdad and ending sectarian violence. Since we're discussing facts, let's address the fact that what LTC Francona says is true: political meddling in the conduct of military operations is unacceptable. The politicians decide where to go and why; the military executes by exercising its expertise in military affairs. Rep. Murtha may be a political expert (and that is exceptionally debatable), but he is far from a military expert on the employment of today's forces and should not be hamstringing the military's conduct of the war. As for the will of the people comments, around 33% of the population of the 13 colonies supported action against England prior to and during the Revolutionary War. Thankfully the majority didn't rule there, right?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65058Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:31:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65058Don Hehir, Tampa, FLIn case no one realizes it, politicians decide when troops will go to war and with whom they will fight. Politicans also decide when the troops will come home. They decide to have them come home when (1) there is an obvious victory or loss or (2) when the war becomes unpopular and they might lose their seats in the next election. In between is brave speeches by the politicians and heroic dees by the troops, who have no say in the matter, never had, and never will. That's how the world works.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65059Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:31:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65059Don Hehir, Tampa, FLIn case no one realizes it, politicians decide when troops will go to war and with whom they will fight. Politicans also decide when the troops will come home. They decide to have them come home when (1) there is an obvious victory or loss or (2) when the war becomes unpopular and they might lose their seats in the next election. In between is brave speeches by the politicians and heroic dees by the troops, who have no say in the matter, never had, and never will. That's how the world works.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65060Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:31:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65060Rich, Seattle, WALt. Col. Rick Francona, perhaps you don't seem to remember the only thing we got out of Vietnam was thousands of permanently disabled veterans that many now roam our streets because our government has FAILED to take care of them. Maybe what we should do is put the people who WANT this sad political jocking over oil prices over there to shoot it out with people that honestly don't care if they live or die. How sad it is that YOU forget this kind of thing, a man of the military who should KNOW that this kind of long term occupational military action is going to fail and do nothing other then get people killed and leave hundreds and thousands of people injured for the rest of their lives. The simple fact is that IF Bush wanted to fix this, he would never went over there, he would have simply SHUT IRAQ DOWN by closing off their borders, stopping all import of goods and export of their oil and let them go back to the days where they were chasing each other around on camels and poking each other with sticks over their silly religious disagreements. I hope YOU, CONGRESS and BUSH are happy with having killed more american soldiers for no reason then 9/11 killed citizens for no reason. Not to mention the THOUSANDS of people in Iraq it has killed. It's SAD that you would even post this kind of NONSENSE support to someone who can't even get his act together enough to realize that this entire war has wasted BILLIONS of dollars, driven oil prices up more then 50% in his term, AND left this country SICK AND TIRED of his need for revenge for what his father FAILED to do in the first place. GET A GRIP ON REALITY. By the way, if you are in such support of it, WHY AREN'T YOU OVER THERE?? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65062Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:32:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65062C A, Tuscaloosa, AlabamaRight on J Pat. All of our young people between 18 and 24 could serve two years in some capacity. If not in the military then rebuilding New Orleans and the Mississippi gulf coast, helping patrol our borders (especially those in the southwest), providing personal care and guidance for injured veterans at VA Hosipitals throughout their stay, doing work for Vista or the Peace-Corp, working in our National and State Parks, working in various health care facilities, working with the elderly, and numerous other projects for this country. With these opportunities even those wealthy influential folks who do not want their children to particpate in the military can't argue against a two year stint doing good works at home. If you want more of our young people to take pride in their country give them ownership. And owndership begins with a little hard work and sacrafice. It would also provide each of them with a true life learning experience that will benefit them in their futures. It just might help to decrease the number of street kids as well as those who turn to drugs and crime for lack of purpose in their life. Would this kind of large scale draft program cost. Of course it would, but the cost incurred would be better served in many of these activities, and for many more americans, than the billions being spent trying to nation build in Iraq and other parts of the world. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65137Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:01:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65137AJ, Omaha NEThe replies to the writer's opinion are absolutely stunning. "You don't know what you're talking about?" Didn't he state he was IN Vietnam? Did some of you even read the article before labeling it and passing it off as "neocon propaganda"? If Bush is guilty of anything, it is polarizing the nation in a way that is seldom seen. If anything, he should resign not because he messed up, but because he created such a rift that even a well thought out policy will be instantly shot down with criticism, despite absolutely no plan of their own from the opposition. I hope the next president knows what he (or she) is in for.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65155Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:06:40 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65155Owen, IdahoThe bottom line is that American military personal are dieing for a lie perpetuated by the upper class. Remember Bush's black tie dinner where he said "This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base." In that party how many have sacrificed anything for this war? How many have sons of daughters in the military. Now ask how many in that party has benefited from this war in the form of defense, rebuilding or oil contracts? Bush did deliver to his "base" and the rest are too easily manipulated by false patriotism and OMG 9/11 terror fear. The land of the free and brave has become the land of the sheep and fearful. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65262Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:50:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65262leon dagdagan, sf, californiaFor those of you who are either so ignorant or so blinded by the facts of Vietnam, we actually won that war, before the media via the likes of Walter Cronkite and the politicians got into the act. The Tet offensive that Cronkite said we lost, actually was won by the US as told by the North Vietnames General who launched the Tet offensive. But when Cronkite said we lost, that gave the North Vietnamese reason to continue fighting us. Now this is hapenning once more with the media and the politicians medling in what should be left to the ones prosecuting the war. Perhaps we should just let the war come to our shores so that those that think we can "love our enemies to death" will be the ones who "die first". http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65272Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:55:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65272SidMaybe I'm oversimplifying this, but for 4 years, Bush gave the Armed forces free reign in terms of use of force, airpower, detentions, etc. with the express purpose of making Iraq a workable democracy. The intention was noble, but the fact is that this strategy has failed, COMPLETELY, till date. So, this micromanagement, and theres no avoiding the fact that this is what it is, both on the Republican & Democrat sides (surge, cut funding, pull troops, remove Shiite clerics, blah, blah blah..list goes on for both), looks like this is actually needed. The military could not accomplish their mission, mainly because it was an impossibly unrealisstic one to start with. So now decisions that only politicians are allowed to make in this country, must be takenhttp://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65485Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:28:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65485Al, Newark, NJWhere is the sacrifice on America's part in this war? If any at all. Magnetic ribbons, shopping and watching the war on tv does not count as sacrifice. I think we need to take some of these unused Ford-Chrysler auto plants to make the equipment and vehicles our troops need so that they can do their jobs successfully. Not much but it would show the troops the citizens of this nation does care and has there back. We haven't attacked the saudis for 9/11/01 because of our love for oil. The equation is quite simple. Saudis have madrassas, madrassas teach anti-American sentiment (ie death to America and Americans), Saudis have oil, America loves/needs oil, America lets Saudis madrassas attack America and give it a pass to maintain its oil relationship. I hope that wasn't too complicated to understand. The bush administration just so happens to be an oil loving corporatists. Do the math people it's all connected.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65494Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:31:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65494Dennis M. CowhigI do not see the conection with Iraq and Vietnam, This conflict is totally different, We are fighting an Isim, Fanaticiam,Ignorance, and hate! We have a culture of belife in the Muslim world that Violence is the way to solve problems, settle differences with sucicide bombers,beheadings, masked men shooting innocent people, excutions all ordered by some Religious Cleric who isn't in the fight. If our congress and Mr. Murtha decide to walk away from Iraq, We are acknowledging the fact that Violence pays and that Violence is the only method in which to solve differences, If that is the case then don't tell me that 9/11 doesnt apply. I don't think that we have much of a choice the radicals have demonstrated that they will use any means to achive their goals. I think that we as a nation have been very generous to our foes even with some of the mistakes that have been made, How come the worlds opinion is condeming the US and not the radicals in Islam. How come the moderate Islamic nations don't step in to offer any troops or publicaly condem the Radical extremists. The contradiction within their Holy Book states not to harm another Muslim so how can they justify killing each other in the name of Islam? I have heard the argument that this can only be resloved politically if that was the case it would have been settled along time ago. They choose Violence and if they were to succeed by chaseing the US out of Iraq hold on to your britches ,USA their worst is yet to come. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65509Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:40:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65509ToolMangler Burlington NCAll combatents learn earyly on that the moment you feel your opponent slack off or weaken in an area you should attack that area with all you have and you might catch them off guard enough to 'win' the struggle. This is true of all conflicts. The moment the Terrorist see in the media that they are perceived as prevailing they attack with renewed vigor. When are people going to learn to KEEP THEIR 'FRIGGIN' MOUTHS SHUT? If your are going to fight some one, do it all the way or else do not start at all!!!!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65517Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:44:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65517PatWhen we voted in November 2006, we the American people voted to bring an end to this war that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in addition to all the people that have became refugees in Iraq internally and outside of the country (it’s a tragedy and a catastrophe of the same Magnitude as the catastrophe of the Palestinians in 1948) this is beside all the brave American soldiers who have died or have been maimed due to the conflict. How many more Iraqi and American lives it’s going to take before we realize that this war can not be won? In a democracy, the president listens to the will of the people and in Last November election we spoke LOUD and CLEAR. We want to end this bloody war and bring our boys home. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65560Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:06:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65560Jake Moss, Charlotte, N.C.Does anyone really beleive we are leaving Iraq!! Take a minute & look @ the whole picture. Russia is spinning its economy on weapon sale to Iran, Syria, & many others. Rummy recieved a military that Clinton cut in half, otherwise the borders never would have been a problem. One question, when do we reinstate the Draft.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65960Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:00:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65960Sam M.After reading through many of these comments, I am left shaking my head in disbelief at how politicized much of this debate has become. From what I can gather, Col. Francona's remarks tend to make a great deal of sense and are in accordance with both history and what is going on in Iraq (from what we see and hear from the media and our "leaders"). Rep. Murtha's plan is a way for Congress to try to reduce our ability to wage war with the intent of eventually forcing an end to it altogether – in a similar fashion to what was done in Vietnam. The key word here is "eventually." Admittedly, I was among the majority of Americans (including politicians from both parties) who supported an initial invasion on what turned out to be false pretenses (viewed in retrospect, with knowledge we all should have had in the first place – especially congressmen with access to the information). We are there, there is a mess, and we are in the middle of it with god knows what flying around; this is fact. However, to handicap our forces – instead of i) simply pulling them out or ii) figuring out the most probable way of quasi-stabilizing the situation – is ludicrous, damaging to our personnel and nation as a whole, and utterly disrespectful to our soldiers. [Re-]Read the Constitution: Congress has the power to declare war, the Executive to lead it – this was a key part of the checks-and-balances system established by the Founding Fathers. Congress has the power to curtail this war as soon as reasonable – its members should not further jeopardize our forces by simply pulling at the purse strings.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65976Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:22:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65976The BearThere is a corelation between Iraq and Vietnam. A bunch of idiots with no knowledge of what really happened are making a whole lot of nosense from what they don't know. I do know that millions of people in SE Asia suffered and died due to the gutless actions of the American Congress. In addition, it is likely that a whole lot of Mideasterners will suffer the same fate. If we allow Pelosi and Murtha to continue their plan of distruction for their own polictical purposes. If you agree with them you are expanding the war by giving aide and comfort tot he enemy. Who will expand their efforts to kill innocent Iraqi's and our service men. Yes, history does repeat its self. Ask the Germans, French, Italians and Japanese; or may be those that suffered under Stalin, Mao and Hitler.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#65980Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:26:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:65980Audrey, Orlando, FLWhy isn't any action being taken based on the Iraq Study Group results? The foreign policy disaster created by this administration is inconceivable. There are not going to be quick, easy answers, and tying up funds while troops are still in harms way just seems like a terrible cop-out. Bush has taken this country to an unprecedented low, and I blame his administration for the tremendous loss of life and the loss of America’s credibility throughout the world… but the pandering, half-hearted and poorly thought out responses coming out of Congress seem like a joke to me. Where is the wisdom?http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66028Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:12:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66028Pete in IllinoisThw Iraq War is illegal and immoral, but it has shown the ability of draft dodgers to run a war. If Murtha wants to right the wrong that the invasion of Iraq is, he should talk to his buddies in Congress about drawing up Articles of Impeachment. Then the World Court ought to get involved and put our dictatorial administration on trial for crimes against humanity. Causing the destruction of "some kind of civilization" in Iraq, albeit being run by a tyrant, was unjustified. Murtha is not wrong by trying to get us out of there; he doesn't want any further bloodshed and embarassment to the reputation and honor of our country. Bush and Co are trying to besmirch our honor; maybe Murtha is just trying to regain some of the lost honor. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66053Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:38:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66053David Thomas Ashland, MO(For disgruntled sailors the Seabees all receive Fleet Marine Training. Seabees "CAN DO" As a former Seabee and later a black shoe sailor I've always advocated that the politicion stay out of the military affairs as far as how to maintain operation in a combat situation and let the military handle it in a professional military way. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66059Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:42:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66059JDH, Los Angeles, CALt. Col. Francona states that the Linebacker II operation "brought North Vietnam to its knees." My question back is, "So what?" "[Bringing] North Vietnam to its knees" is no guarantee of victory. The United States armed forces brought the government of Saddam Hussein to its knees in a matter of days. And yet there is no victory. What was missing in Vietnam and is missing in Iraq is a definition of victory. If victory is defined as elimination of all the Communists/terrorists, then victory is clearly impossible; one might as well try to eliminate all the mosquitos, too. If victory is defined as the establishment of a stable government, it never happened in Vietnam, and it hasn't happened in Iraq. Without a clear goal and standard for victory, we have no choice but to lose. In the case of Iraq, the Executive branch and its armed forces have not been able to stick to any definition of victory. Given that circumstance, it is imperative that the Legislative branch define the terms of engagement, and, if they determine that there is no way to define and achieve victory, then they must also define the terms of disengagement. Lt. Col Francona has shown the flaws in various trees while ignoring the forest. No army, no matter how powerful, technically advanced, strategically ingenious, and fully funded, can win a war if they don't know what constitutes a "win".http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66072Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:01:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66072Michael, Hanford, Ca.My only question is, do you know what the difference between VIETNAM and IRAQ? In Vietnam we had a HANOI JANE who talked bad about out fighting men and even took pictures with North Vietnamese Military. So who is going to be the next IRAQ JANE. Rember the more that you tell your plan the easer it is to hide. The old saying is loose lips sink ships. So shut your traps and let our me do their work/jobs!http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66199Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:15:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66199Kurtis WichmannMaybe we should not be in Iraq just as we should have been in Vietnam, you idiot...typical Military speak....http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66238Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:51:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66238Rusty Brinkman, Denver, COHaving spent the last winter in Hanoi, I find myself hoping that we as Americans could be more like Vietnamese. Happy that we won our independence from another country that controls our future, able to make decisions that benefit our own national course, and forgiving our enemy for the wrongs they have committed against us. For a land that is largely composed of Christians whose faith espouse turn the other cheek, I see a lot of revenge and retribution for an act(9/11) that had no relation to a war that has overshadowed the first act of retaliation in Afghanistan, but has become linked due to the words and actions of our government and powers that be due to interests of money and power. Sure we will always have corruption and greed in our power structures but let them not have their way uncontrolled and with our blessing. Let's also not become so high on our soapbox that we can't accept that others don't make mistakes as well. Admitting our own would be a good first step in the right direction and accepting others imperfections would be a good second step. For all the folks around the world I've met, we north Americans seem the most hell bent on causing a ruckus and not getting along with others. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66294Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:53:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66294Paul D., Granville, IAI wonder if the Democrats are ever disturbed by the fact that their rhetoric is a word for word match for that which comes from the terrorist leaders and their mouthpieces. Kind of scary isn't it? http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66300Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:03:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66300Paul D., Granville, IAWhy are the liberals bemoaning the war in Iraq and the loss of American military lives? They should welcome it because if there is any group that is truly under represented in the military it is the liberals. This should be viewed by the lib's as a step in the right direction because it helps tip the scales of political power in their direction. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66305Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:13:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66305Johnathan Barry, Roanoke Vaso you are suggesting that we allow more Americans to die to back a failing policy. Your Commander-in-Chief is a complete moron who has never had to lift a finger in his life. No wonder his Iraq policy is failing, everything he has ever done has failed. He owned several oil companies and could not find oil in Texas, that is what is called being stunningly useless. This man has done nothing but try to make money for his coonies. If you would look at the whole picture you would see, we are going to lose this war no matter what we do. I am a Marine and shutter at the fact of America walking away from a fight, but the facts are this... Iraq is a tribal society and you cannot instill a democracy in that type of environment. Iraq has been in a civil war for over a thousand years. Bush is a complete idiot. Cheney is complety out of touch with reality, and Rice is a self richous idiot. I think we should pull every single American out of Iraq, and start making the Administration pay out of their personal accounts the rebuilding of this nation we destroyed. Sadam was a tyrant but the Iraqis had electicity and basic services. "Shrub's" first decision was to disband the Iraqi military and to protect the oil. Which was supposed to pay for this war... LIES all LIES. Every member of this administration apparently has an alergic reaction to the truth. Until these idiots stop lying to us we will never trust and should never give them that much power. I vote for an immediate impeachment procedings against every member of the adiministration and if found guilty, executed. They didn't commit treason during a time of war, but they did commit it to get us in a war. So unless you are going to speak for the benefit of all Americans then do us all a favor and keep you mouth shut.http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66328Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:42:40 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66328A M, New Haven, CtWow I am reading all this and I can't help but wonder, has everyone forgotten who sent us there? Mr. Bush, and all was based on lies...like it was some war game ...remember " dead or alive" etc. such bravado. As one who has served in Vietnam I can tell you the boys and girls there are not having fun, they must put the thoughts of being killed by IED or snipers into the dark part of their minds or it will eat them alive. Has anyone noticed that it is rare to see any film or video from there and if you do see it, it's cleaned up and way short, why is that??? Another thing, what is with this " we kill them there so they don't come here" What??? does anyone really believe that we are tying them up there so they don't come here ...come on be real, I think if they wanted to they can work on many fronts. They are not all grouped up in one little part and can't more around, remember 9-11. We left Vietnam and they didn't come here...I also think it's time the Iraq's start to protect their own... it almost seems that they are gutsless and would rather American lives be wasted then their own for THEIR country, you got the bad guys digging holes to bury the IE D's and no one hears or see them doing it..no one wants to protect their own area...God when will the light shine thru all this I pray that men & women there come home safe and sound. WE have things to worry about right here in the good OL USA..this war is taking our eye off the ball here at home...maybe that is it purpose I hope not...God Bless America!! http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#66614Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:10:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:66614MSG, St. Petersburg, FLI was in high school during Vietnam while my dad, a senior officer in the Special Forces, was stationed at Ft Bragg after 2 tours in 'Nam. The GI's were my age and I dated some of them. The officers who fought were our family friends and neigbors. Those guys you read about in the history were my schoolmates dads. I can unequivocally tell you that this Francoma guy is spouting revisionist BS. The military did not support the action in Vietnam. It was felt that it was a huge mistake, but you know... soldiers aren't allowed to speak out in public. Privately they had *a lot* to say. Any *real* soldier will tell you that 1. War is hell, not some kind of gung-ho football game 2. Politicians are guys who get good soldiers killed for no good reason. Francoma is one of those clowns that regular soldiers refer to as "politicians." What was the mission in Vietnam, sir? As far as anyone could figure out it ended as a combination of hairy-chest thumping, politics and oil that started out as a misguided bid by the US to support French colonial occupation of a nation that believed it had won it's independence following WW2. Anti-communism was just hollow political rhetoric used to justify our bid to pick up where the French left off after they "gave" us Vietnam. If you want to comment you should at least take a minute or two to read up on the history. Vietnam was a screw up from start to finish. I was never so proud of my country as I was when we stood up as a nation and said "this is wrong and we will not do it anymore!" The mood in this country was one of elation that our democracy had triumphed, not some foolish sense of defeat. That all came years later as one political party tried to best the other by repainting history with a different brush. Lastly, I was a resident of John Murtha's district in PA for the past 6 years, where he has served long and is much beloved. Shame on you for slandering such a man. Our troops are *not* being adequately cared for, treated fairly or trained/equiped properly and bless him for standing up and saying so. http://hardblogger.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/20/60041.aspx#67176Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:19:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:67176Rick H. Mpls. Mn.Col.Francona: In regards to your statement [ what we Viet Nam vets. learned the hard way],Im one and what I learned was nothing was to be gained [except from sales of war materials] weather we were there or not. Its my personal belief, that had the south won , more american jobs would be over there than currently, use Korea as an example. [hows your Hundai running get my point.I have the greatest respect for my fellow vets from all wars .We did the best we could to complete our missions for friends and country, but the bottom line is in most cases WW2 excepted the politicians shouldn't have put us there.Let the Iraqies find their own peace .THe majority of them wanted Sadam gone we gave them that, after that our aid should have been financial with what we've spent already there's alot of Iraqies who could of had new houses with pools or at least garbage service. Its time our politicians "close their pockets" and represent american people instead of big business. corporate lobbists line the pockets of both partys. Lets see what the democrats do when their votes mean actually mean something,that will show us who's really represented in america.